Phrasing - miles,monk, django vs. coltrain type

[Jkf_Alone]

what is the appeal of a coltrain type phrase? i understand the 1st three fairly well, it seems like each phrase from miles davis is a well thought and formed statement, where coltrains phrases seem a bit like verbal diarreah , with a few wonderful lines thrown in when he gets it all together .im contrasting stuff on the kind of blue album in particular. miles and coltrain share a few of my favorite songs, but i find myself skipping coltrains choruses sometimes. can someone help me appreciate these types of lines more?

[Perry]

I tend to favor more "melodic" jazz myself (Miles etc..)

I'm a jazz neophyte and far from an expert but maybe the intrigue of Coltrane is the inventiveness he demonstrated playing outside and 'around' the changes.

But he of course could play very sweet stuff too. Listen to Coltrane's solos on on "Kind of Blue" (are you saying Coltrane's Kind of Blue stuff is verbal diarrhea?) That's way "inside" compared to some other of his work.

Perhaps the better we understand jazz the more we might appreciate a guy like Coltrane.

But in the final analysis if it doesn't sound good to your ears then there you go. Is it then worth learning to acquire a taste for it

[Jkf_Alone]

i agree about blue in green, maybe i was a little hard on his stuff by calling parts of it verbal diarrhea. i guess im trying to aquire a taste for his style, where the taste for a davis, monk or django style chorus has been naturally in me since i was groovin on Mr. Rodgers.

[Flowerpot]

I hear what you're saying about Coltrane, as I have found his solo lines to be less accessible than the others you listed. Kind of like it's coming at you so fast and furiously that it doesn't communicate. Immediately, anyway. I say that because after about 15 years (literally) of listening to Blue Train, I finally started to "get it"... it started to click and make sense, and I began to hear why so many people consider his work genius caliber. Then I started digesting Giant Steps and other Trane gems, and became a convert. Maybe it's an acquired taste, or maybe his playing is just so complex and cerebral that it took me a long, long time to let it sink in. This is not to say that if you don't love Coltrane then you're lacking musical IQ points, cause there's plenty of room for taste here, and there are many jazz luminaries that I just don't care for. But in this case it took a while, and some effort, to appreciate his approach.

I think a good stepping stone for me was listening to a lot of Cannonball Adderly, as I think his playing is a bit more "out there" than Miles but a lot more comprehensible (up front) than Coltrane. And I still think Cannonball is the most under-rated sax man out there.

Some things I try to note in Coltrane solos are: where does he take you before he brings you back? Where do you expect the line to go and vs where does he actually go? What chord is he implying over the real chord changes, and what is the interplay between the bass/piano and his solo line?

Some times Coltrane could solo for 5 minutes and never repeat a phrase. And people would ask him why he would blow for so long, and he'd say (something to the order of) "I wasn't through with what I wanted to say." So I try to keep in mind, he's not playing what he played the last chorus through, so there's something new there he's trying to communicate.

[Jkf_Alone]

i guess i see what your saying. im probably more in less cerebral melodic camp. i perfer bach to beethoven (kinda similar to miles and train difference) and hemingway to falkner (although i love dostoyevsky, so go figure) i remember a hemingway quote that is a nice juxtaposition for coltrain's.
when asked why he uses such simple words and stark descriptions he said something like " I'm searching for the perfect sentence" implying the sentence with the least words that packs the most meaning. this is the first forum that ive been a memeber of where people who reply actually read the entire post!

[mandocrucian]

I never particularly liked the My Favorite Things sheets of sound stuff. But there's a lot of accessible material. (I've got 20 or so of his albums)

Prestige (label) era Coltrane (late 50's)

Atlantic (label): Giant Steps
Plays The Blues

Impulse: Ballads, John Coltrane & Johnny Hartman , Live At The Village Vanguard, Live At Birdland

This is a compilation that will give you some really lyrical playing The Gentle Side of John Coltrane

NH

[SternART]

I found that the more I listened...things that were too far out...a few years later I was startin' to dig...and a few years after that I was going "Yeah!" to the same outside stuff that at first I didn't get. I guess you cultivate an ear, or taste for things, and if you listen to enough jazz you get more familiar with the vocabulary. For my ears the soloist can get as far out as they want if the rest of the band hangs together...it is when it sounds like everyone in the band is soloing on a different tune, at the same time, that I draw the line.

Niles is right about straight ahead Coltrane, that Impulse date with Johnny Hartman is a great example, as is Ballads. He went through an evolution, towards a more abstract vocabulary, and the earlier work is indeed easier on the ear.

[Don Stiernberg]

What a beautiful and deep topic!The discussion itself shows how Coltrane's sound and concepts cause us to ponder and reconsider music, which is amazing when you remember he worked in the 1950's and 60's...

What fascinates me here is the concept of what constitutes a melody.Through the years I've heard conversations like these:

"Do you dig John Coltrane?"
"No, I like more "melodic" jazz.."

But wait!Coltrane plays melodies for days!Indian ragas are melodies also, as are Brasilian Choros, fiddle tunes,Broadway standards,Bach, Charles Ives---you get the idea. Some melodies are more accessible, some more ornate, some possibly beyond our immediate understanding given that they are from other cultures or perhaps(as in the case of Coltrane) the product of a personal, intellectual concept
pertaining to harmony. But they're all melodies, I think! Someone help me here, because I (untrained musician) don't even know the definition of melody. It seems like it would include ideas like "single notes in succession referring to a harmonic structure" but, hey, I don't know.

When I think of Coltrane, I think of routes through chord changes and his innovations in getting from one place to another in a tune or progression. The tune Giant Steps illustrated that the more conventional chord movements such as ii-V-I or tonic-subdominant-dominant-root were not the only ones available. Chords could just as readily move in minor thirds or fourths, or combinations thereof. This was not totally unprecedented in jazz, as listening to Bix Beiderbecke and Charlie Parker will bear out. Interestingly, they endured similar response initially, the comments going to "Those notes are wrong!" or "Too many notes" and of course "Why don't they play the melody?"....

I was really glad to see the comments above, especially mention of players like Johnny Griffin and Cannonball Adderley, a couple of my favorites also, and players whose melodies seem to hit you right in the heart but are also informed by complete mastery of all the possibilities.Some of my favorite players in the music are guys who distill the innovations somewhat. I'm thinking of what Cannonball did with Charlie Parker's innovations, or what Michael Brecker does with what Coltrane set forth. Certainly not to be missed for us string people is what Wes Montgomery did with
Coltrane's approach. Apparently he was invited to be in Coltrane's band, but declined for some reason..

Another innovator from that time is happily still with us and active-McCoy Tyner. He and another Coltrane influenced jazz master, George Benson, teamed up on George's "Tenderly" CD. Listen there for chords voiced in fourths, intervallic leaps that are not so commonplace, and...melodies for days!

Well, thanks, cats. It's nice to know I'm not the only one who ponders these things. I look forward to hearing more on this topic. It is, as the saying goes..."ALL GOOD".

[Walter Newton]

GREAT discussion! #Hopefully not digressing too much...but how about his TONE? #Like his note choice it also seems to be something of a love/hate thing - I did a quick google search and turned up some who call it "vocal", "lush", "beautiful" and like a "human voice"; others say it's "strident", "hard edged", "vinegary", "emotionally impoverished" - thoughts?

[Dave Caulkins]

It is amazing the diversity of response to Coltrane, as illustrated by the above comments. 'Trane was one of the first jazz musicians who I really felt entranced by, along with Miles and 60's Wayne Shorter. It was actually later that I came to fully appreciate the inovators who came before, especially in the swing period. It took moving forward to send me to the later player's influences and realize where it all was coming from.

Where I lose my comfortable footing in jazz phrasing is with a number of fusion players, who come across angular and cold to me. I have favorites there too (Scofield, early Metheny) but I just can't hang with Mahavishnu most of the time. Then again, I still like that Jack Johnson period Miles, too...

But I digress....

Dave

[Daniel Nestlerode]

From the Oxford Concise Dictionary of Music
"Melody A succession of notes varying in pitch, which have an organized and recognizable shape. #...The notes are heard consecutively..."

I guess the functional definition of melody varies to the degree in which the listener grasps the organization. #Someone not familiar with the extended harmonic range that Bebop uses would have a more difficult time recognizing the lead lines as melodies.

In my case, listening to Andy Statman's latest CD has educated my ears to the possibilities presented in that extended harmonic range. #Specifically, I listened to the tune "Old Joe Clark?" a couple of times before looking at the title on the CD case. #I had no idea what the melody was supposed to be. #It sounded very free-form to me. #Once I "knew" it was OJC, I could hear the places where the original melody would fit. #At that point I had a better appreciation of what Statman was up to.

Coffee, beer, roquefort cheese --like Bebop all these things are an acquired taste, and all are rewarding in their own way once you acquire a taste for them.

Daniel

[Flowerpot]

Wow, great comments.

I guess the functional definition of melody varies to the degree in which the listener grasps the organization. -- Dan

Good assessment, which is probably why it took me years to make sense of Coltrane's complexities, slowly learning the bebop vocabulary and his particular way of weaving a path through it. Probably most people would say it ain't a melody unless you can hum it, but there's no reason you can't consider jazz improvisation the art of creating new melody on the fly.



"...and players whose melodies seem to hit you right in the heart but are also informed by complete mastery of all the possibilities." -- Don S

Can I use that quote later? Very well put, and I'm so happy an "untrained musician" of your talent and notoriety chose to weigh in on this (let's work on that post count of yours now). And interesting that you mention Wes Wontgomery in that light, as I was thinking about his playing too when I mentioned Cannonball. Wes' playing goes right to my gut, almost a visceral response, but is still holds up under repeat listening and analysis. I can't read or do a puzzle or anything else when I've got Wes playing on the CD, as it demands my immediate attention and won't let go till he's through. Other masters of improvisation that tend do that to me are Oscar Peterson, Stan Getz, and Stephane Grapelli. I've even been known to come home from work only to sit in the car with the engine off for several minutes, and explain to my wife that I know dinner's getting cold, but Oscar Peterson hadn't finished his solo yet... and yes, I've listened to it 50 times before, but it doesn't matter.

Where I lose my comfortable footing in jazz phrasing is with a number of fusion players, who come across angular and cold to me. -- Dave

Same here, and even in the Bop realm there are great players who have seemed aloof to me -- for instance, as much as I like the technical playing of Joe Pass, for me it never struck a nerve. And some of the more modern-ish pioneers (like Mingus), I still dont "get" it, and don't know if I really want to get it. (Maybe I'm closed minded.) And Mycoy Tyner seemed a bit "angular", as you put it, on what little I've heard of his playing, but since he's been mentioned as another worthy innovator, I'd better go listen some more.

[jmcgann]

"John Coltrane and Duke Ellington" might help you listen to Coltrane until you like him

[Nathan Kellstadt]

Amen John. I truly enjoy the entire breadth of Coltrane's output, but that version of "In a sentimental mood" he does with Ellington is one of my absolute favorite pieces of music ever and remains in a class all by itself.

[Dan Krhla]

I recommend trying "Song Of The Underground Railroad" (from The Complete Africa/Brass Sessions) or "Spritual" (from Live At The Village Vanguard: The Master Takes) before moving on to stuff like "The Father And The Son And The Holy Ghost" (from Spiritual).

I remember listening to My Favourite Things one day, and a non-Jazz-fan friend said, 'hey is this My Favourite Things'? I was blown away. I liked the song so much, I never really tried to make it fit, she made me hear the song in a whole new light.

BTW, if anyone has any input / comments / whatever on The Father And The Son And The Holy Ghost I'd love to hear it!

[jmcgann]

Or put on the headphones and put on "Ascension" and just rearrange your DNA. Bluegrass (and surf music) will never sound the same again

[Pete Martin]

I do agree sometimes on the Miles recordings Coltrane could sound like he was at time searching for something and was ocassionally not locating exactly what he was looking for. Then there are other recordings where he plays pretty straight ahead and it is stellar.

I find three recordings of him I really dig "Bags and Trane" (Milt Jackson), Blue Train", and "Cattin with Coltrane and (Paul) Quinichette.

I also have to respectfully disagree with an above statement about one of my idols, Joe Pass. While Joe is a great technician, he plays some of the most imaginative improv lines I've ever heard, regardless of instrument.

[Jkf_Alone]

I'm starting to understand the stuff coltrain did on the kind of blue album after listening to selections from it in the car a few more times (i love the mp3 player shuffle thing) randomly popping up between django and jethro tunes. i can here where coltrain is going more easily if i hear him in small portions ( the coltrain box set probably isnt in my future if there is one) maybe its the voice itself, the sax, that makes it harder on me too. one moment it can sound like a clarinet, then a trumpet, then come in with something completely different.

[jmcgann]

"The Prestige Recordings" is 16 CDs, and that's all pre-Giant Steps/Kind of Blue era. Concord Records was selling that box for about $65 last summer (as well as the Bill Evans Complete Riverside, 12 discs).

Do yourself a favor and get the BALLADS CD. That's the most accessable, yet beautiful, deep and moving Coltrane.

It takes time for some listeners to be able to hear what's going on in the more adventurous music. For some, forever (as in never). I love how the more "out there" stuff expands my ears- but then again, I sometimes spin Stravinsky for easy listening

The first time I heard jazz, I hadn't a clue what was going on- I liked it, and it intrigued me, but I can appreciate it a ton more now that I know something about it...everyone has likes and dislikes, but keeping an open mind can keep you young (or so the young folks tell me)

[Jkf_Alone]

thank you so much everyone for digging into my question so deeply. it kinda puts me in a state of awe that people like Mr. Mcgann and Mr.Stiernberg actually answered my post. thanks again for welcoming me so well into the mandolincafe community!

[fangsdaddy]

i first heard "ascension" when i was in the 8th grade. i haven't looked back since.

btw. RIP alice coltrane.

[Peter Hackman]

i first heard "ascension" when i was in the 8th grade. i haven't looked back since.

btw. RIP alice coltrane.

Ascension will make you love the Beach Boys.

[mandolooter]

I've even been known to come home from work only to sit in the car with the engine off for several minutes, and explain to my wife that I know dinner's getting cold, but Oscar Peterson hadn't finished his solo yet... and yes, I've listened to it 50 times before, but it doesn't matter.

Well...Im not alone! My kid (at 11) is finally growing out of the "come on Dad, your heard that a million times" syndrome as she develops her love for music and now I find myself waiting as AFI's-Miss Murder ends and we can enter the local supermarket.
Im glad to see McCoy Tyner's name in this thread also but the mention of Cannonball Adderley brings up many a memory too. That reminded me of how I went backwards sort of...first came Zawinul with Weather Report and then I went back in time to his tenure with Cannonball A.. I had to "learn" to like a lot of jazz where rock, country, etc. came more naturally to my ears. Lot of great advice and posts here for a novice jazz fan!

[fangsdaddy]

i first heard "ascension" when i was in the 8th grade. i haven't looked back since.

btw. RIP alice coltrane.

Ascension will make you love the Beach Boys.

doubt that.

[fangsdaddy]

it's interesting to me that no one has mentioned "a love supreme" yet. it's my fave. is it too "outside" for yinz?