Looking to design an a model - preferences?

[Stephen Perry]

I like A model mandolins and am thinking of putting one together. I already have a couple of prototype F models I rather like. I'm not at all sure what the market would like or if I'm thinking appropriately, and I have a few things I'm a bit unclear on. Suggestions would prove very helpful. Here's what I like, and what I'm unclear on market preference for:

1. 15 fret standard shape A model, F holes
2. Sugar maple (?) birdseye body
3. Maple neck (what's the best?)
4. Red spruce, Engelmann, or Sitka top? (What does the market really prefer???)
5. 1 3/32" nut (or would 1 1/8" be more marketable?? I'm probably influenced by dinky violin necks)
6. Snakehead variation peghead
7. Unbound fingerboard
8. No extension, just a nice truncation
9. Single color stain
10. Single line wood binding (or is going dark - light - dark really that much of a big deal for the market? Is imitation Tortoise attractive to the market? I like it.)
11. No name on the headstock, just an inlay, probably of my mandovoodoo logo
12. Tuners. What a range of opinions! I like the Waverly tuners. Will players really pay the extra for these? The Schallers seem so inconsistent. Would top end Gotoh, Grover etc be OK? This is for a production mindset, so dinking around with tuners isn't really going to be a feasible thing. They just have to work.
13. Shaped case. Or do players really want big rectangular boxes?
14. Kurt's walrus nut & bridge. Or is this an excess? I really like what they do.
15. Thinking tone bars are more acceptable, but I like some of the modified X bracing better. Is this a sticking point in the market for A model mandolins?

Any public or private suggestions would be most welcome. I'm not thinking of flooding the market, just putting out a few at a time. I like mandolins!

[Stephanie Reiser]

Interesting project, indeed.
What demographic of market are you targeting? Medium range price range, or more affordable?
1) I agree with 15 fret standard A-model shape.
2) I wouldn’t limit you to “Sugar” maple. I’ve recently become a fan of Bigleaf. Or did you mean to say “Curly” maple? I would stay away from quilted unless this will be a more expensive instrument.
3) Maple neck, what’s the best? Do you mean grain orientation? Or species? I agree with maple, but the jury is still out as far as grain orientation is concerned.
4) The market may not know what they prefer as far as spruce top wood is concerned. Since these instruments would be made ahead of time, and not on a strictly “custom” basis (and therefore you could not discuss with an individual player their musical style and provide them with guidance), this would be a difficult question to answer. However, I don’t think you can go wrong with Engelmann. Or, you could use various tops, and be married to just one species.
5) I would go with a 1-1/8” nut, but I have no real reason why in a business sense.
6) I concur with the snakehead.
7) I think I’d bind the fingerboard.
8) I agree with no extension.
9) I agree with single color stain.
10) This is strictly a matter of taste. Again, it depends on what market segment you are after.
11) I would definitely put your name or logo on the headstock.
12) Waverly’s sure are the best, but they will drive the price up.
13) I would go with a shaped case for this A-model.
14) I think the Walrus nut and bridge is excessive on an F-holed instrument.
15) Tone bars.

These are just my opinions, but I do not have near the knowledge or experience most of the other members here have. Remember, you are building ahead for a predetermined market, therefore you are trying to guess their needs and wants. This can be difficult, especially with a medium price ranged or higher end instrument (i.e. Waverly tuners, wood or tortoise binding).
However, it sounds like an exciting project and I’d be interested to observe the outcome.
Great idea! Good luck!

[Red Englemann]

Red spruce, Engelmann, or Sitka top?

Steve,

Sounds like a fun project. Are you handcarving or have you bought some CNC technologies?

I prefer Red and Englemann over Sitka. I might be able to get you some pretty old (400 year old) Red spruce if you are interested. It came from a log harvested after Opal came through the Smoky's in '95, around 30-40 grains per inch.

Regarding body style, I prefer the Gibson and Eastman oval A's best. My favorite headstock would be the paddle head style.

red

[DryBones]

Just make it a lefty!

[sunburst]

1. 15 fret standard shape A model, F holes

Yes, 15 frets, yes, close to standard shape.

2. Sugar maple (?) birdseye body

Sugar is good, Red is a little easier both working the
wood, and controling the sound. "Any" maple species can
make a good mandolin.

3. Maple neck (what's the best?)

Sugar is very stiff and doesn't give much trouble from
string tension, but it's about the heaviest. It's harder
to get the mandolin to feel balanced. Red is lighter,
and still plenty strong and stiff.

4. Red spruce, Engelmann, or Sitka top? (What does the market really prefer???)

I think the market prefers Red spruce, but mostly just
because they've heard it's best, not because of any real
sound difference that they've observed. All three
species can yield excellent wood.

5. 1 3/32" nut (or would 1 1/8" be more marketable?? I'm probably influenced by dinky violin necks)

1 1/8". I tried other sizes, and when I got to 1 1/8",
people started saying; "I like the neck".

6. Snakehead variation peghead

yes

7. Unbound fingerboard

I think bound is more marketable

8. No extension, just a nice truncation

minimal extension

9. Single color stain

A little harder to sell than a burst, but much less time
consuming, and therefore, less expensive.

10. Single line wood binding (or is going dark - light - dark really that much of a big deal for the market? Is imitation Tortoise attractive to the market? I like it.)

Single wood is OK, people like tortoise, a lamination
adds enough elegance to attract more attention.

11. No name on the headstock, just an inlay, probably of my mandovoodoo logo

Name and/or logo seem important. I tried no name on my
early instruments, and people complained.

12. Tuners. What a range of opinions! I like the Waverly tuners. Will players really pay the extra for these? The Schallers seem so inconsistent. Would top end Gotoh, Grover etc be OK? This is for a production mindset, so dinking around with tuners isn't really going to be a feasible thing. They just have to work.

Waverlys can be a selling point, but so can a well
balanced instrument than feels good to hold. The heavy
Waverlys make that harder to do.

13. Shaped case. Or do players really want big rectangular boxes?

Shaped case, not a big rectrangle. Players want light
weight, lots of storage, and weather proof. you can't
really get all that in one case.

14. Kurt's walrus nut & bridge. Or is this an excess? I really like what they do.

My guess is it's an excess, depending on price and
availability. Bone is standard for high quality nuts,
and ebony is expected for the bridge.

15. Thinking tone bars are more acceptable, but I like some of the modified X bracing better. Is this a sticking point in the market for A model mandolins?

Yes and no. Bluegrassers lean toward tonebars, (not
always) others aren't so concerned with how you get the
sound, just whether or not they like it.

Build a prototype or two, carry them around to all the players you can find and see what they say, and most of all, carry them around to all the builders you can find. Players often tell you what you want to hear rather than what they really think. Builders can be you best source of constructive critisizm.

[Lane Pryce]

1) I agree with 15 fret standard A-model shape.
2) Curly maple
3) Unfinished maple neck,small V or Collings style.
4) Red Spruce
5) # # #1-1/8" bone nut
6) # # #Bound Snakehead
7) Bound fingerboard.
8) I agree with no extension.
9) I agree with single color stain.
10) Wood binding is nice but IBI is easier and more # #traditional.
11) I would definitely put your name or logo on the headstock.
12) Gotoh tuners. The look is more traditional and the ivoriod buttons look very nice with the IBI or I binding.
13) I would go with a shaped case for this A-model.
14) Traditional ebony bridge ---- maybe something from Steve Smith.
15) Tone bars but the great thing about the X bracing is great sound right out of the box and a very short play in.
16) # # Cast tailpiece --- maybe something from Allen or Collings.
17) # # Spirit varnish finish.

I too like A styles and these are the components I like to see in a mandolin. Waverly tuners would be great however I tend to think most folks who will opt for them will do so on a higher end custom mandolins. Stew Mac should have their new machines out in 07, might be a better alternative. Just my nickle --- Lp[/quote]
Sounds like you may be on to something here. Would the logo be: The Gianna, The Steve, The Perry or The Voodoo? Lp

[kww]

I'm not going to comment on your individual features, because you know that better than me. My main advice is to develop something that constitutes a signature appearance, not just a blurry inlaid signature on the headstock. Something that from 20 feet away, someone can look at the mandolin and say "mandovoodoo". Bloodwood tuning pegs, purpleheart inlay, unusual material for the pickguard, black anodized frets against a bleached white maple fingerboard ... something that takes a traditional element and replaces it with something unique that still works within a tradition-bound design. One thing that strikes me about the mandolin market is that for A and F styles, everyone is working within such a narrow set of parameters that it is hard to tell one from another without a magnifying glass.

[sunburst]

One thing that strikes me about the mandolin market is that for A and F styles, everyone is working within such a narrow set of parameters that it is hard to tell one from another without a magnifying glass.

There's a lot more variation then there is in violins. From the second row, you cant tell a 285-year-old Strad from a 1-year-old Roth. The traditions are nearly set in stone.

Different just to be different is hard to sell. If there's a good design reason for a difference, that can be accepted.

Luthiers, for the most part, don't deliberately choose to make instruments that look like "everything else" but instead "built to the market". If they want to make money, they build what sells. The consumers are the ones who decide how much mandolins look alike.
Yes, I know there are many exceptions to this. Yes, I know about Monteleone and Rigel. Yes, I too like to see different designs, and yes, I agree there is room in the market for some innovation, but there's risk for the builder in experimentation. It's often left to the well extablished builders and the part timers who have a means of maintaining their standard of living other than trying to sell unusual looking mandolins to people who aren't really ready to spend that saved-up money on something different than they're used to.

[PaulD]

John makes a great point.... personally I really liked the appearance of the Rigels, but apparently there weren't enough folks that did to keep them afloat. I wish I could have supported them while they were still building... I'd still like to pick one up 2nd hand when $$$ permit.

pd

[Spruce]

"Red spruce, Engelmann, or Sitka top? (What does the market really prefer???)"

I'd look at Western Red Cedar and Redwood too...
Both are underrated and up-and-coming...

And I think the market would like to see a nice offset 2-pointer in the D'Angelico style...

[otterly2k]

I don't need to comment on all the specs, but I will comment on the ones I have clear preferences for.
-keep the headstock light...helps to keep the instrument well-balanced.
-to me, Waverlies are overkill. yes, they're great, but to me the cost is disproportionate to the gain. Tuners should work smoothly and hold pitch.
-single color stain...YES. Too many bursts in the world. Personally, I like a natural wood best (satin finish works well to show this off), but single color is also good.
-bind the body and fingerboard. no need for multi-layers. Tortis is nice. Or a contrasting wood. I find white plastic to be a detractor.
-have SOME identifier on the headstock... logo is fine. Steer away from derivative decoration like "The Name" and ferns and flowerpots. Let it reflect YOU.
-shaped case...yes

and fwiw, I think it would be great to have an oval hole option.

[ab4usa]

Stephen,
Sounds like my Old Wave
1. Yes
2. Birdseye
3. Same
4. Engelmann
5. 1 1/8”
6. Check
7. Check
8. Check
9. Check (blonde)
10. Mine’s Tortoise but wood would be nice.
11. Check, Old Wave Logo
12. My Shallers are fine. Waverly is great if it’s for you but too expensive for production I think.
13. Check
14. Seems a bit excessive, Mine are bone nut and ironwood bridge and saddle
15. tone bars here

[allenhopkins]

Consider doing something a little unusual with fretboard inlays -- not just MOP dots. Not necessarily elaborate or expensive, just different.

[Stephen Perry]

Thank you all for very constructive and informative comments. My goal is something quite affordable, but distinctive. Something along the lines of the Eastman MD605, but different. Nice wood, simple approach, moderate price, distinctive look. And excellent performance.

One comment concerned making an oval hole. I like this, but the market is fairly limited. I seem to have plenty of oval hole mandolins in stock, but relatively few leave except at the lowest price point! Sort of like mandolas. Everyone wants one, but relatively few actually buy them. On the other hand, I have sketches for a nice 15 fret modern oval hole that would work nicely.

Two of my F model prototypes exist. I should have one set one up today in “trial” fittings and give it a whirl. A bit different from expected, but very pretty for a developmental version. Red maple slab and sitka.

So, the consensus and my taste come down to this preliminary version:

1. 15 fret standard shape A model, F holes. Although I might give the F holes a tweek in outline. I’ll have to sketch up some violin F holes on an A mandolin, see how I like it. I can cut violin F holes just fine!

2. Many opinions, think perhaps varying bodies including birdseye, nice flame, slab etc. Just keep them different. Clearly there are many opinions and the wood figure doesn’t really concern me too much. In violins, I like slab and wild grain with odd figure. I think I can get all the wood I need. At the very least, flashy and different wood. I notice the birdseye Gitane guitar always gets the looks. I had initially in mind sort of uniform appearance, but the comments I’ve received suggest that perhaps a uniform color and various woods would be effective. I am actually rather fond of some of the interesting Asian maple. Great stuff. If I get over there I'll try to track some down.

3. Light weight maple neck, probably plain, violin type finishing on it, violin inspired shape, sort of an oval, not the club or ½ round or tight V.

4. Varied tops, focusing on red spruce and engelmann, both I can get easily. Will also consider once I can get a few made doing other woods. I really like some of the Asian wood. But I have some Carpathian maple to die for . . . Difficult! I suspect the uniformity of color is more important.

5. 1 1/8" nut appears to be the most marketable.

6. As light as I can get away with Snakehead. I’ll make a slightly distinctive shape, eventually with matching tailpiece, and complementing the cut off end of the fingerboard.

7. Bound fingerboard

8. Elegant truncation

9. Single color stain, probably in a caramel/whisky color, in the maple, possibly not in the spruce unless I can get it very even. Fairly light, medium Scotch whiskey brown.

10. Either Rosewood or tortoise plastic binding. Wood isn’t going to be any real trouble. White and black lining if it isn’t too cost prohibitive. Seems imitation tortoise is acceptable. Not the standard white. I don’t like that.

11. Mandovoodoo logo on the headstock. Or if that is prohibitive to do, a very simple flower.

12. Good Gotoh tuners.

13. Definitely a shaped case. I’ll probably just use a TKL or Guardian or Superior, put a plate on it.

14. Polished bone nut, Steve Smith bridge.

15. Tone bars initially. Will try X if I can get the line going. Although I’d rather keep these simple and elegant.

Tailpiece is difficult. I want light and original. Probably can’t do that right away. Also, will use something like the Weber endpin. The wood pegs just pop out too easily.

Thanks so much for focusing my thoughts on this little project.

[Mario Proulx]

All good stuff so far. I'll add that an A style can be more different than an F style can be, and still sell. You can use different shaped soundholes, use various woods for the body and neck, different inlay and binding schemes, etc.... If it sounds good, plays good, and the price is reasonable, it will find a home. My personal mandolin has a 1.270" wide neck(at the nut), and the positive comments on that out number the negatives by a lot. Being different can be a good thing....