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Thread: Bowlbacks of Note

  1. #7176
    Registered User Peter K's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bowlbacks of Note

    "Embergher" in this eBay UK listing's title triggered my mandolin scouting network.
    https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Antique-M...4AAOSwGYNd9tzE

    However, as it turns out, that was a mandolin ( or a mandola) that someone though it resembled an Embergher. Either way, that looks like an interesting instrument, and might turn out to be a great player. The maker is Nicolo Ulcigrai (Italy) who was apparently a violin luthier of some renown. Born in Trieste in 1893, and continued to make violins into 1970s. In 1931 Ulcigrai moved his shop to Venetian sestiere Cannaregio, next door to the Museum of Natural History on Canal Grande.
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  3. #7177
    Full Grown and Cussin' brunello97's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bowlbacks of Note

    Beautiful piece of top tonewood on the mandolin.
    Wondering if the seller might do better by offering them individually. The mandolin might draw some interest.

    Mick
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  4. #7178
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    Default Re: Bowlbacks of Note

    Quote Originally Posted by brunello97 View Post
    Beautiful piece of top tonewood on the mandolin.
    Wondering if the seller might do better by offering them individually. The mandolin might draw some interest.

    Mick
    Indeed, the mandolin (or mandola ?) looks well made, uniquely yet well styled in a sort of a modern way. I'd like to think that a liutaio whose bread and butter product are violins, would have to be on top of his craft, also having a delicately honed ear re instrument acoustics, be they violins, cellos or mandolins.

  5. #7179
    Jo Dusepo, luthier Dusepo's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bowlbacks of Note

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter K View Post
    "Embergher" in this eBay UK listing's title triggered my mandolin scouting network.
    https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Antique-M...4AAOSwGYNd9tzE

    However, as it turns out, that was a mandolin ( or a mandola) that someone though it resembled an Embergher. Either way, that looks like an interesting instrument, and might turn out to be a great player. The maker is Nicolo Ulcigrai (Italy) who was apparently a violin luthier of some renown. Born in Trieste in 1893, and continued to make violins into 1970s. In 1931 Ulcigrai moved his shop to Venetian sestiere Cannaregio, next door to the Museum of Natural History on Canal Grande.
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    I think that one on the left is a tambura, rather than a mandolin.
    I am a luthier specialising in historical and world stringed instruments. You can see more info at my website.

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    Default Re: Bowlbacks of Note

    Quote Originally Posted by Dusepo View Post
    I think that one on the left is a tambura, rather than a mandolin.
    Yes...that's what the Ebay listing has it as: tambura.

    Mick
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  8. #7181
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    Default Re: Bowlbacks of Note

    Quote Originally Posted by brunello97 View Post
    Yes...that's what the Ebay listing has it as: tambura.

    Mick
    Serves me right for not clicking on the actual listing
    I am a luthier specialising in historical and world stringed instruments. You can see more info at my website.

  9. #7182
    Registered User Peter K's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bowlbacks of Note

    That Ulcigrai mandolin keeps calling me, but the darn tambura would be a deal breaker from the standpoint of subsequent resale. While the bowl back mandolin market is near dead in Canada, I'd say the local demand for tamburas ought to be practically non-existent.

    The mandolin headstock scroll appears really well carved, I guess as only a violin maker would do it. Looks like the bridge as well as the nut are missing. Alas, the former would obviously be impossible to recreate without seeing the original bridge, which is probably very unlikely, since I do not recall ever seeing an Ulcigrai mandolin before.

    Incidentally, the family name Ulcigrai is also very interesting as it does not have a pure Italian origin, but possibly Slavic. According to one source, the Ulcigrais originated in the town of Izola (Isola d'Istria in Italian) in today's Slovenia, where they could be traced back to the XV century. During the end-of-WWII upheaval in Istria, the Izola's Ulcigrais moved to Trieste, joining the Ulcigrais who had settled there in older periods of time.

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    Last edited by Peter K; Jan-07-2020 at 6:59am.

  10. #7183
    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bowlbacks of Note

    Peter: the label was originally printed Trieste and then crossed off and Venezia written in. I think it is a mandola tuned octave, not a mandolin. The proportions look wrong for a mandolin. It looks heavily made but that may just be a wild guess. I write to the seller to ask a few questions and could go see it in person. I don’t need it at all but it is an interesting instrument by a violin maker but I only see a handful of his violins and they go for maybe $500-2000 in auctions. Not extremely valuable. If you are dying to pursue it I would step aside and share what I find out.

    I have a 1970s Calace mandola which is currently tuned CGDA. Last time I played it was in Aonzo workshop for Brandenburg— fun stuff.
    Jim

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  12. #7184
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    Default Re: Bowlbacks of Note

    Thank you Jim. I have also asked the seller if she'd consider splitting the sale, before I'd pursue mandolin condition related questions. I agree with you that we could be looking at an instrument more robust than a conventional mandolin. If the FB is straight and the bowl apron end looks healthy, who knows, I might try an offer.

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    Full Grown and Cussin' brunello97's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bowlbacks of Note

    I have a couple bowl-dolas in the posse, one bearing many of the -ahem- Larson traits that we enjoy quibbling about.
    It does share the relative top proportions viz the cant position that the Ulciagrai instrument does.
    Simply getting a dimension from the seller should verify such speculations.

    Mick
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  15. #7186
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    Default Re: Bowlbacks of Note

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter K View Post
    Thank you Jim. I have also asked the seller if she'd consider splitting the sale, before I'd pursue mandolin condition related questions. I agree with you that we could be looking at an instrument more robust than a conventional mandolin. If the FB is straight and the bowl apron end looks healthy, who knows, I might try an offer.
    Hi Peter: I assume you know that in the description she says "USA only, PayPal from verified buyers only. NO RETURNS, Please ask all questions before buying.These Instruments come from a smoke free pet free home."

    I have not heard anything from her yet. I also asked if she would sell the mandola separately.

    I have been trying to get my dog to stop smoking but it is not working. Oh well...
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  17. #7187
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    Default Re: Bowlbacks of Note

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Garber View Post
    Hi Peter: I assume you know that in the description she says "USA only, PayPal from verified buyers only. NO RETURNS, Please ask all questions before buying.These Instruments come from a smoke free pet free home."

    I have not heard anything from her yet. I also asked if she would sell the mandola separately.

    I have been trying to get my dog to stop smoking but it is not working. Oh well...
    Jim, my eBay listing says she is shipping to Canada too via the Global Shipping Program. However, as far as "no returns" goes, you are correct there.
    Listen, why don't you try to switch your pooch to ganja smoking.....that would be better for his/her health, and the smoke is much more pleasant smelling than tobacco.

  18. #7188
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    Default Re: Bowlbacks of Note

    Peter:
    I heard from the seller:

    The fifth fret is missing and also the nut. The measurement from the missing nut to the 12th fret is approx 9 1/2 inches. (Therefore the scale length is 19 inches—definitely a mandola with octave tuning preferred.
    She would allow local pick up in my neighborhood should you bid on and win this auction but she didn't mention me coming to take a look in person. And she says she won't sell the Mandola separately. They will be sold as a set only.
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  20. #7189
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    Default Re: Bowlbacks of Note

    Thanx Jim, I've got basically the same answer from the seller.

  21. #7190
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    Default Re: Bowlbacks of Note

    I think she will realize that few people want both instruments at that price. I don't get why sellers feel a need to bundle their unrelated items. She added the two higher estimates to get $1300 for both but even at the lower end estimate ($900) it might be a hard sell. I don't think she sells instruments very often.
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  23. #7191
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    Default Re: Bowlbacks of Note

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Garber View Post
    I think she will realize that few people want both instruments at that price. I don't get why sellers feel a need to bundle their unrelated items. She added the two higher estimates to get $1300 for both but even at the lower end estimate ($900) it might be a hard sell. I don't think she sells instruments very often.
    Quite so. Based on my modest mandolin selling experience, I'd have a hard time selling that mandola for $700 fully restored, but if I did, that would mean that I'd have to pay no more than about $300 for her instrument the way it stands now in order to break even.
    (That's assuming the restoration would cost me $400, which could be very optimistic too, because when buying mandolins on eBay like that, they are in a worse shape than presented, more often than not.)

  24. #7192
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    Default Re: Bowlbacks of Note

    This lebel-less mandolin seems to be getting a bit of attention on eBay UK, perhaps because it has some superficial characteristics of earlier (19th c.) Calaces.
    https://www.ebay.com/itm/Very-nice-v...oAAOSws~BeEggR

    The tuning machine could be Calace, although it appears more recent because of its good preservation. The tailpiece, the pickguard outline and the headstock shape would also fit the Calace provenance.

    The bridge not so, IMO.

    One problem with those early Calace attributions is that their mandolins show considerable variation in style and detail. However, my guess would be that the subject mandolin was built by some unknow luthier no more than 100 years ago in the style of Calace.

    l also suspect there could be some issues with that mandolin neck and fretboard beyond of what the listing pictures are showing.
    What we do see is the following:
    * A couple of tuning buttons are poorly done replacements.
    * The third fret bar is oddly skewed. I see some repair hacks doing that sort of thing, but not the Calace workshop.
    * One bowl stave separation crack has been glued/filled with something that could be epoxy.....if so, that "repair" would not be easily repairable.

    Lastly, even if this mandolin was a bona fide Calace, who'd ever believe you in the absence of a Calace label ?
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    Last edited by Peter K; Jan-08-2020 at 3:55pm.

  25. #7193
    Full Grown and Cussin' brunello97's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bowlbacks of Note

    If this ever showed up on Jeopardy when I chose "Italian Mandolins for $400, Alex!" my answer (in the form of a question) would be
    "What's NOT a Calace mandolin?"

    My hunch is that it is from the good folks down Catania way.

    The side / neck view ought to scare folks away as much as a lack of pedigree.

    Mick
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  27. #7194
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    Default Re: Bowlbacks of Note

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Garber View Post
    Peter:
    ....The measurement from the missing nut to the 12th fret is approx 9 1/2 inches. (Therefore the scale length is 19 inches—definitely a mandola with octave tuning preferred.
    That makes for a pretty appealing bowl. Replacing the missing fret and nut is pretty straightforward work.

    Patience, gentlemen..... She may likely come around.

    Mick
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  29. #7195
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    Default Re: Bowlbacks of Note

    Quote Originally Posted by brunello97 View Post
    That makes for a pretty appealing bowl. Replacing the missing fret and nut is pretty straightforward work.

    Patience, gentlemen..... She may likely come around.

    Mick
    She might for sure, because the way her listing stands now, I do not see her getting any action.
    Pricewise I'd perhaps go out on a limb for the mandola alone, however, that tambura ballast is the deal breaker. In a way, that is an unfair statement to make because the tambura could be a glorious and valuable specimen in its own right, just that we are not into that music/instrument genre.

  30. #7196
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    Default Re: Bowlbacks of Note

    On the heels of Peter's mandola-built-by-a-violin maker comes what appears to be another mandolin from violin maker John Wesley Wiseman, whose work showed up about 10 years ago in this post from PD Kirby.

    This Wiseman is in poor, but not unrepairable shape. Like PD's, appears to be a well fashioned instrument, heavily blinged, but nicely so to my eye. A pity so much of the MOP appears missing. The Ebay add references PD's mandolin.

    I wonder if PDK is around to catch this thread?

    Mick
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    Last edited by brunello97; Jan-13-2020 at 10:16pm.
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    Default Re: Bowlbacks of Note

    A couple of interesting bowls in my morning ebay feed.
    The first is from a Neapolitan maker (or labeler) who I haven't yet had an example in my files "G Calzado".
    Fairly nice looking fluted bowl and overall appointments.
    Bi-lingual label suggests a market in Le Monde Francomando.

    Mick
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    Default Re: Bowlbacks of Note

    The other is from "Globe" whose products show up now and then. This one with an interesting label.
    The "Successors to....." preceding The Italian Mandolin Mfg Co. New York
    reads like an English translation of what we sometimes see in Italian on labels.
    I seem to recall the "The Orphane" showing up once before without photos.
    Also a fairly okay looking bowl, with hybrid Italo-Americo appointments. Likely a playable neck provided a proper replacement bridge is installed.

    Mick
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    Default Re: Bowlbacks of Note

    Quote Originally Posted by brunello97 View Post
    A couple of interesting bowls in my morning ebay feed.
    The first is from a Neapolitan maker (or labeler) who I haven't yet had an example in my files "G Calzado".
    Fairly nice looking fluted bowl and overall appointments.
    Bi-lingual label suggests a market in Le Monde Francomando.

    Mick
    It's kind of odd that I have missed that one. Could you please give us a link to the eBay listing. (I get excited whenever I see a nice old mandolin without strings.... a good sign for sure from the standpoint of fretboard bowing.)

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    Default Re: Bowlbacks of Note

    Pedro, I must have been truly tra veglia e sonno when I posted that Calzado mandolin last week. Sorry for that. Usually, I'll plug in the ebay listing.
    This was on ebay.fr and looks like it has ended.

    Some nice photos in the ad but no good view of the neck.

    Mick
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