Bowlbacks of Note

[Christopher Stetson]

I do, Jim! Actually two, but one is currently unplayable with very high action. The other is very nice, I'd say near presentation quality, and good tone. I'm technology challenged, but I'll try to get a photo. I was very disappointed, however, to learn that "cousin" J. F. apparently didn't actually exist as we commonly understand the term. My info is that he was just a brand name of Lyon and Healy. Therefore I suspect the nice one is Larson Brothers. The other, I'm not so sure.

[Christopher Stetson]

Hi, everyone.

In case you all haven't seen it already, this popped up on ebay USA:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1895-Hutchi...19.m1438.l2649

Unfortunately I can't afford to be a collector in this fashion, even though I live 20 miles from Springfield, MA where this was made so long ago, but I thought someone here might want to give this historical curiosity a good home. I'll cross-post in the ebay section.

Best to all, and keep playing. -Chris.

[Jim Garber]

For historical purposes, here are some pics from the eBay listing. From all the photos I have of Hutchins instruments, it seems like they always made with all-metal. I think these stayed together better than other brands with the wooden tops like those made by Merrill. Those often seem to have problems esp with the top attachment.

[Wiggans]

Hi All,
I recently bought this mandolin at a local auction for £35. Apart from what Ive learned via Google over the last few days I know little or nothing about mandolins.



Any information much appreciated

Regards

[Jim Garber]

Post a photo of the bowl and the back of the neck. I assume the bowl is rosewood or maple. I never heard of this particular maker but there were quire a few in Napoli in that era. OTOH it is also possible that it was made for a retail store by another maker.

It is hard to tell from the one photo, but it looks to me like someone varnished the top and possibly the fretboard. The second photo is of a sleeve guard and it might be something that a player bought after he or she got the mandolin.

Are there any other labels inside? Is there more info on that label? Many of these Italian mandolins were imported into the UK back then too and often there is the label for the store.

[brunello97]

I have an example of a Giovanni Montana mandolin in my files. But unfortunately not one from his fratello, Giovanni "Joe" Montana, who went into another line of work.

Molto Vinacciano in its styling.

Whether GM was the actually maker -- or just the labeler -- is up for debate. The Queen Victoria sleeve guard suggests a clever UK trageted marketing strategy. "Giovanni Montana" might have been part of that.

I agree with Séamus... post some more photos!

thanks,

Mick

[Wiggans]

Hi again,
Thanks guys for the replies
Yes the front and fretboard have been varnished unfortunately.
There are no other labels or details other than that shown. The label is much plainer than other labels i've come across.

As requested, more photos .....








Thanks again

[Jim Garber]

It looks like it is in pretty decent shape but I do guess that the back was refinished or oversprayed as well as the top. I do like the tulipwood border on the back, common for htese Napoli mandolins.

Still it might be a nice player. The usual caveat which you will find countless times on this thread is to use light or even ultralight strings. I am not sure what is available in the UK but GHS A240 are the fallback and if you want to splurge, I like Dogal Calace Dolce RW92b. Fisoma Consort or Optima strings are also good.

It looks like whoever fixed it up used a metal rod saddle for the bridge. If you like the sound, that would be fine, but if you want a different sound have a bone saddle installed.

[Wiggans]

Hi Jim
Ordered GHS A240 strings (8 against the current 10) which should help playability (if not my ability to play! 8). Strings seem very high to me, 4.5 mm at 12th fret although neck appears to be straight. Thinking about making a new, lower bridge to lower the action and maybe fitting a new nut to lower strings further.
I wonder if you'd care to suggest what year the mandolin was made and also its possible value? (I know, its worth whatever someone is willing to pay for it.)
Oh and I checked out your soundcloud stream - wow! nice stuff on there. You are obviously a very capable player!
Derek

[Wiggans]

Regarding the tenuous Victoria link ....
The book 'The Classical Mandolin' by Paul Sparks mentions ..

... maybe I've got Princess Alice Mary Maud's mando!!!
regards

[Jim Garber]

Hi Jim
Ordered GHS A240 strings (8 against the current 10) which should help playability (if not my ability to play! 8). Strings seem very high to me, 4.5 mm at 12th fret although neck appears to be straight. Thinking about making a new, lower bridge to lower the action and maybe fitting a new nut to lower strings further.
I wonder if you'd care to suggest what year the mandolin was made and also its possible value? (I know, its worth whatever someone is willing to pay for it.)
Oh and I checked out your soundcloud stream - wow! nice stuff on there. You are obviously a very capable player!
Derek

Thanks, Derek.
You might wait until you get the lighter gauge strings. You could just sand down the bottom of the bridge to lower the action, tho the brass rod saddle looks a bit thick. You could try a smaller diameter possibly. Does it fret OK in the upper frets?

[Wiggans]

The bridge is possibly original and rather brittle so I wasn't comfortable trying to adjust the intonation with the heavier strings currently on it as the bridge may have broken. I should be able to fashion a simple bridge to check how well the mandolin functions once the new strings are on. My problem is this is the only mandolin I've ever got my hands on so I have nothing to compare it against. I'm more at home with a Telecaster

[Bob A]

Let me respond to your opening post in the VIntage section, regarding comparison among bowlbacks.

I have made an effort to assemble a collection of these instruments, with examples from Italy, Greece, Germany and the US. They range from about 1890 to the mid-1920s.

As a general rule, the Italian instruments tend toward a bright and sparkly treble, with a somewhat diminished bass response. The larger and heavier the bowl, the more bass. The Salsedo, Mozzani, Monzino and Vinaccia instruments are lighter in construction, with some being incredibly light in weight, on the very edge of seeming too fragile to tolerate the tension of the strings. This is illusory, as the subtle arching of the top creates a very strong structure, so long as all parts remain intact. With many having survived well into the hundred-year-old category, I assume reasonable care will see these performing well toward their second century.

Giuseppe Vinaccia provided me, posthumously, with a mandolin of smaller size, nearly as light as the above-mentioned, which is all sweetness and delicacy. I have two Ceccherini instruments, both with the double soundboard for which they are known. One is monstrously ornate, the other a more normal level of finish and furniture. They both have the distinctive chime-like tone that I've come to associate with this maker. I'm extremely pleased to report that their tonal characteristics and playability are on a par with one another, which supports my belief that Italian makers put forth a reasonable effort to provide a quality player's instrument even at the lower price points. I salute them for this.

A Calace in my possession is a much more sturdily-built instrument, with a large bowl and generally heftier timbers. Its tone tends more toward gravitas than sparkle, which is not to detract from its worth. I have a Monzino & Figli example from 1907 with a very large bowl and a 14" scale, the only such instrument I'm acquainted with of that size from Italy

The Roman-style Italians, most notably the Embergher mandolins, are sophisticated in their graceful lines, lined with spruce shavings rather than the paper seen on most others, possessed of narrow fingerboards varying in thickness from bass to treble to assist fingering, and tonally quite different from any of my other instruments. Some like it, some do not.

My sole German mando was a Konrad Wolki signature model, with the scalloped ribs and Roman-style design elements. It had a somewhat smaller soundhole than I would expect, and a fine mellow midrange tone.

My modern Greek bowlback is a structurally different animal, a different species altogether. With a walnut bowl, which I've not seen elsewhere (which is not to deny their existence) and a completely different top geometry, it does not utilise the Italian arching of the soundboard for strength, nor the cant to increase pressure on the bridge. The board is thich in comparison to the Italians, yet it narrows significantly at the edges where it is glued to the bowl, and reminds me of the structure of a loudspeaker cone, which is stiff centrally, but flexible at its edge. Sonically it is not far from Italy, as is geographically reasonable, I suppose.

To cross the ocean, American bowlbacks seem to be more heavily-constructed than the best (speaking only of my preference, of course) Italians, they seem to project fewer overtones, while having a strong aural presence. That is, they can be louder than you'd suspect. The best of them, which include the high-end Vega mandolins (especially the vaunted Pettine Special model) are concert-quality performers, and "efficient transducers" (such as my Stahl presentation mando, attributed by the seller, quoted here, to the Larson Brothers), putting out surprising volume. I had only one Martin, which was a fine instrument that I didn't play much, as its very thin neck didn't accommodate my left hand well at all.

It is worth mentioning that the Vega Pettine model was the preferred performance instrument of Richard Walz, who engaged a US luthier (Dan Larson, if memory serves) to copy, in order to have adequate backup instrumentation should his Vega become damaged or worn through overuse. That alone should serve to indicate that the much-neglected US bowlback ican be a worthy porfessional-level instrument, though largely unknown and unappreciated in Europe and Japan.

I should mention Japan as a producer and consumer of mandolins. Ever since Raffaele Calace impressed that nation with his skill as a composer and player in a series of concerts in the Golden Age, the Japanese have embraced the mandolin. They seem to have imported a plethora of Italian instruments over the decades, and produce a number endogenously. (The tools used by the last of the Embergher luthiers, Pasquale Pecoraro, were given to a Japanese luthier to carry on the tradition of that atelier, though I am unaware of any of his instrumetns.) I have not played any of the modern Eastman bowlbacks, so cannot comment. The earlier production of Suzuki mandolins, however, tended to be over-built and under-performing, in my experience, and that of some others here.

That's about all I have on the topic, or at least all that comes to mind (such as it is). Hope you find it of some use.

Let me add a link to Richard Walz playing some Beethoven on his Pettine. Try not to let it discourage you . . .
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O70ajArdsY4

[Jim Garber]

Here's an interesting one from Germany (according to the seller) — Carl Ruchmich. I love the outlandish peghead design.

[Beanzy]

Here’s something I hadn’t come across before; porcelaine mandolin prototype from Max Freyer & Co., Meissen 1900

[Martin Jonas]

Here’s something I hadn’t come across before; porcelaine mandolin prototype from Max Freyer & Co., Meissen 1900

That is most disturbing. I guess it would have to be Meissen!

I wonder whether this was a display model rather than a working instrument. It certainly isn't strung up to pitch now and I wouldn't think porcellain could withstand the string tension or the vibrations.

Martin

[Beanzy]

I don’t think it’s as delicate as that Martin.
I had a late friend who used to make engine blocks and bearings for fire engines & armoured cars using it.

[Jim Garber]

Is that a secondary soundhole at the end of the fretboard?

[Beanzy]

It looks like the fretboard was made with an extension, but the slot was made to have a square one slid in. I assume they designed it to slot in from the front.

[brunello97]

Viz Martin's question, I wonder if there is any internal bracing, and if so would they also be made of porcelain?

We're working on some cast porcelain pieces in the shop right now from CNC produced molds. The idea of making a mandolin this way never crossed my mind.

Mick

BTW for those of us less familiar here's from the Wikipedia article on the city of Meissen:

Meissen is famous for the manufacture of porcelain, based on extensive local deposits of china clay (kaolin) and potter's clay (potter's earth). Meissen porcelain was the first high-quality porcelain to be produced outside of the Orient.

The first European porcelain was manufactured in Meissen in 1710, when by decree of King Augustus II the Strong the Royal-Polish and Electoral-Saxon Porcelain Factory (Königlich-Polnische und Kurfürstlich-Sächsische Porzellan-Manufaktur)[3] was opened in the Albrechtsburg. In 1861, it was moved to the Triebisch river valley of Meissen, where the porcelain factory can still be found today. Along with porcelain, other ceramics are also manufactured.

[Beanzy]

I think people’s impression of its delicacy comes from the fact that, because of the inherent strength, makers took it to incredibly fine thicknesses. That’s where the prestige lay, showing the extreme. However the bevel on that prototype seems to suggest that there was a decent bit of depth to the top on that one even before any bracing, if there was bracing copied over from a wooden design then it could have been a pretty robust structure. I’d love to see inside, but couldn’t find any pics on the auction site.
https://www.invaluable.com/catalog/8...ies=PXSPMZLSE5

[Martin Jonas]

I agree that porcelain has a lot of strength if it's thick: the insulators on high voltage power lines are made from it. However, if you want it to vibrate and be acoustically active, it has to be thin. Note the characteristic ping when you hit a spoon or fingernail on a thin cup, which you won't get on a thick mug. I still think that the elastic properties (or lack thereof) will be all wrong for an acoustically active instrument.

Martin

[Beanzy]

I think there’s probably a good reason why it’s a propotype, but it might be no less strong or resonant than a large tureen or vase.
If you’ve ever knocked the ladle against one when empty you’ll know how long they can ring for & how loud they can be. I think like the eggshell the secret of its strength in resisting string tension would lie in the curve of the back. As the top doesn’t seem to be canted too much I suspect the tension there is mostly straight through.

[bstanish]

I'm not sure if this counts as a bowlback of note, but I thought that I would throw it in here anyways. I recently picked up a W.A. Cole bowlback in Vancover, BC. It's in pretty decent shape, some cracking that seems like it could be repaired. I put a set of Calace by Dogal (Dolce RW92B) on it and they seem to be working out well. It plays nice, has good action (~2mm @12th fret), and a nice sparkly sound.



I'm not sure why the photos are sideways, so my apologies for that.

[brunello97]

Very nice looking mandolin. I use those Dogal strings on my bowlbacks as well and also like them a lot.

If I'm not mistaken, WA Cole was one of the Boston makers that later coalesced into the Vega company. And many of us here are Vega mandolin fans as well.

Yours is, indeed, a bowlback of note.

Mick