Bowlbacks of Note

**guitharsis** · Jun-22-2005, 6:49pm

Oh my gosh! Congrats, Martin!

Doreen

**dfxlr** · Jun-25-2005, 4:56am

Hi all

By the way, I am the winning buyer of that one mandolin Dan K was trying to get a couple of months ago. I bought the previous mandolin for a friend. Right now, the mandolin is in repair. It had a sunken top (which is why there was a piece of cardboard under the bridge which was on the pickguard). The neck was pretty straight. The people I sent the mandolin to for repair said that it is an American mandolin, made around the turn of the century. They also believe it Larson mandolin, complete with a Larson-style bridge. Anybody disagree? Here's the e-bay picture again. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws....6397014

**Jim Garber** · Jun-25-2005, 6:09am

That one, dfxlr, resembles very much the Stahl mandolin that appears on an anniversary poster for the Milwaukee Mandolin Orchestra, so I would say that the Larson connection is very possible.

I am curious what methods your luthier is using to fix the sunken top. Were there loose braces?

Jim

**dfxlr** · Jun-25-2005, 6:56am

I have no idea. I will keep the board posted with details (if you'd like, although this sorta isn't the place for that...some may object). Do you have a photo of the poster?

**Jim Garber** · Jun-26-2005, 11:03am

Here is a pic of the MMO poster. Unfortunately, it was in a corner of my office and there was a glare. In any case, you can see the resemblance.

Jim

**dfxlr** · Jun-26-2005, 12:51pm

Hmmm...they don't quite look the same. I think a subtle diffrerence is the bridge. Can you identify the bridge?

Sorry, really blurry photo. You'll also be able to see the bowed-in top.

**Jim Garber** · Jun-26-2005, 2:26pm

Actually the bridges do look similar (not exact) to me. Bone insert on ebony base. I was comparing the pickguard shape and the shape of the end of the fretboard. There are many variants even in the same style number of L&H brands. They farmed out some to makers such as the Larsons and some they made in their own factories.

You will find many similar variants in other manufacturers esp if you start looking at the minutiae. Even Gibson and Martin varied their models. I have yet to come across a high-end Martin bowlback that had the exactly the same inlays.

Moveable bridges aare not a good identifying feature anyway, primarily because they are removeable. Hard to say in amny cases which are the original parts in that case.

Jim

**Alex Timmerman** · Jun-26-2005, 3:47pm

Congrats martinjonas!

Here´s another Giuseppe Vinaccia. For your interest by the way, there is a detailed description and picture (Pp. 42 & 43) of a Giuseppe Vinaccia in my catalogue/book ´De Mandoline & Gitaar door de eeuwen heen´. #

And a Giuseppe Calace. #Click here (to be had for 600 Euro).

Best,

Alex

**Jim Garber** · Jun-26-2005, 4:03pm

Originally Posted by (Alex @ June 26 2005, 16:47)

Here´s another Giuseppe Vinaccia.

Aha! Maybe a clue to one of the brands imported by the mysterious Tipaldi Brothers. One Tipaldi labeled example I have in my jpeg collection does bear resemblance (not exact!) to this one. Too bad that this Vinaccia seems to bear the scars of being sat-upon. Poor abused mandolin!

Jim

**lucho** · Jun-26-2005, 5:00pm

Does anybody knows anything about any Vinaccia Fratelli 23 rosewood ribs mando signed by Carlo Munier. Even though I had read CM was Pasquale Vinaccia's nephew, but I didn't know he made mandolins at the Vinaccia workshop... Are any of those made by him as good and valuable as those by his uncle?.

**Jim Garber** · Jun-30-2005, 6:18am

A mildly unusual Demeglio with an asymmetrical scratchplate. Photos are not great but you can get an idea. Might be a bargain because of that.

Jim

**Bob A** · Jun-30-2005, 10:33am

Carlo Munier left Napoli when he was 22 years old, according to Sparks. That would have been around 1881. After that time he seemed to have been engaged in composition and concertising. I doubt he was engaged in building instruments during that period of his life; this would not preclude his signing a label, of course. Perhaps it was an instrument he favored? At any rate, I'd love to see a photo of such an instrument, or read a report regarding it from one who has played it.

**Martin Jonas** · Jul-05-2005, 6:58am

This de Meglio-esque bowl is labelled "Christofaro". #Same guy as the mandolin method book?

Martin

**Jim Garber** · Jul-05-2005, 9:31am

Originally Posted by (martinjonas @ July 05 2005, 07:58)

This de Meglio-esque bowl is labelled "Christofaro". #Same guy as the mandolin method book?

Funny, but there is no mention of "Christofaro" por "Cristofaro" in Sparks, tho he seems to be the author of one of the more common methods.

The method author, tho is F. Cristofaro whereas the mandolin maker is E. Cristofaro. [Label below from an example from 1900].

Most of these I have seen have not been Demeglio clones but with assymmetrical scratchplates and fishtail headstocks. Often they have strange shaped sound holes as well.

Jim

**Eugene** · Jul-05-2005, 1:34pm

Originally Posted by (martinjonas @ July 05 2005, 07:58)

This de Meglio-esque bowl is labelled "Christofaro". #Same guy as the mandolin method book?

As Jim said, different guy. ...But this looks like no other Cristofaro mandolin I've seen.

The author of the persistent method is often misspelled in later editions. I have a late 19th-c. White edition attributed to "Christofaro." I don't have Sparks on hand in the office, but it seems remarkable that there is no reference to the author of such a prominent method.

**Jim Garber** · Jul-05-2005, 1:56pm

According to Bone: Ferdinando Cristofaro was born in Naples in 1846 and died in 1890. All the mandolins I have seen were dated 1900 or later. He did live in Paris also (like the maker) and was considered to be the premier mandolinist of the day. He was notable for writing the first truly serious method for the classical mandolin. According to Bojn, it was Cristofaro who first introduced the mandolin to the English public.

BTW his favourite mandolin was one constructed by Luigi Salsedo to Cristofaro's specifications.

Jim

**Jim Garber** · Jul-05-2005, 8:12pm

Originally Posted by (Alex @ June 26 2005, 16:47)

Here´s another Giuseppe Vinaccia.

Ah, that poor sat-upon GV mandolin did quite well for the seller: $492.50. This one will need considerable luthier magic to become again playable IMHO. Yours, Martin, looks to me to be much closer with a few £'s worth of luthier TLC, should be up and running.

Jim

**Eugene** · Jul-05-2005, 10:33pm

Originally Posted by (jgarber @ July 05 2005, 14:56)

[Ferdinando Cristofaro] was notable for writing the first truly serious method for the classical mandolin.

This isn't really a fair assertion given the fine methods of the mid-18th c. (Leone, e.g.), Bortolazzi's of the early 19th c., etc. Was this printed in some edition of the Cristofaro method that you own, Jim? Bone showers the Cristofaro method with praise, but my edition of Bone's text doesn't credit it as the first.

**Jim Garber** · Jul-05-2005, 10:44pm

Originally Posted by (Eugene @ July 05 2005, 23:33)

Originally Posted by (jgarber @ July 05 2005, 14:56)

[Ferdinando Cristofaro] was notable for writing the first truly serious method for the classical mandolin.

This isn't really a fair assertion given the fine methods of the mid-18th c. (Leone, e.g.), Bortolazzi's of the early 19th c., etc. #Was this printed in some edition of the Cristofaro method that you own, Jim? #Bone showers the Cristofaro method with praise, but my edition of Bone's text doesn't credit it as the first.

I may have misinterpretted the following:

Originally Posted by

To the Neapolitans, Cristofaro introduced a new and completely advanced method of playing — accustomed as they were to seeing the instrument in the hands of strolling players and used chiefly for accompanying popular songs.

Jim

**Martin Jonas** · Jul-06-2005, 8:17am

Originally Posted by (jgarber @ July 05 2005, 21:12)

Ah, that poor sat-upon GV mandolin did quite well for the seller: $492.50. This one will need considerable luthier magic to become again playable IMHO. Yours, Martin, looks to me to be much closer with a few £'s worth of luthier TLC, should be up and running.

I would have thought so, too -- I paid $230 more, but I'm fairly sure that the extensive extra repairs necessary on the other one will more than make up that difference.

Although both seem fairly plain, there are quite a few differences between the two GVs considering they are only two years apart. The sat-upon one has the Vinaccia-style pegs in the tailpiece and closed tuners; I have open tuners and a metal tailpiece. The tuners are non-original, but it doesn't look like the original ones were closed. Tailpiece may of course also be non-original but doesn't really look it. One thing they have in common is that the label is glued in at an odd angle; maybe a quirk of Giuseppe's.

Martin

**vkioulaphides** · Jul-06-2005, 8:35am

[QUOTE]"To the Neapolitans, Cristofaro introduced a new and completely advanced method of playing — accustomed as they were to seeing the instrument in the hands of strolling players and used chiefly for accompanying popular songs."

Dang! I KNEW I had somehow missed a critical rung in my Darwinian evolution!

On topic: best of luck, Martin! I think you (vis a vis the Vinaccia) are in good shape. As for the sat-upon, alas...

**Jim Garber** · Jul-06-2005, 9:10am

1961 Calace 16bis. The Seller also has a moderately ornate Monzino.

Jim

**vkioulaphides** · Jul-06-2005, 10:55am

Very nice, both. If the prices stay reasonable, we may have another convert (or two) to the Order of the Bowl. Alas, however: the likelihood is rather that, instead of converts, such instruments will be acquired by #addicts. #

**Bob A** · Jul-06-2005, 3:49pm

(Scratch, scratch, sniff, twitch . . . ) Ah resemble that remark, podner!

**Martin Jonas** · Jul-17-2005, 5:31am

This no-name bowl seems rather fancy, with fluted ribs, front-mounted engraved tuners and a very fancy hard case. May come into the pigs-with-lipstick cetegory, of course, and has a worrying mention of a botched repair at the headstock (but no photo showing it).

This is the first mandocello bowl I can remember coming up in a long while, sold by our own Ian.

Also, the usual complement of Stridentes and Puglisis in varying condition -- there always seem to be several of those on Ebay UK at any one time.

Martin