Old time VS Bluegrass

[jmcgann]

I think deep listening to the masters of the style should answer the original question of how best to get the sound of old time (or any style for that matter!) without the bluegrass influence.

[earthsave]

I am trying to start an old time/traditional stringband(eg Foghorn Stringband, Reeltime Travelers etc.)The trouble is when we play old time songs we always tend to sound more like bluegrass instead of old time. What would be some suggestions to get more of the old time sound. Or better yet what makes the old time sound as opposed to bluegrass? Thanks

Good descriptions from everyone. I agree about having a strong melody fiddler. Dickel Brothers come to mind, they were driven by Clancy's fiddle.

I'd say just go with what feels and sounds right to the group. If you have fun playing a song a certain way, just go with it.

We play Old Time in a Bluegrass style, or sometimes Bluegrass in an Old Time style. I try to play more ringing open chords when we do the Old Time stuff, since I struggle with playing the melody.

[Don Christy]

I just finished taking an advanced OT ensemble class lead by a very good claw hammer banjo player and I agree with most everything that's been said here.

In addition to all the great comments here, my instructor mentioned that the other instruments should really pay attention to how the lead fiddler is playing and try to pick up/mimic their stylings, noting the little slides, drones, double stops etc and trying to do something similar on their instruments. You really shouldn't play your version of the melody. Pay attention to the fiddler's version. With a good fiddler, this can be tough as they vary the melodie slightly as the song progresses.

Also, while the mando and banjo are melody instruments, they should play plenty of rhythm and not just the melody all the time. As noted above, the OT rhythm style for mando is very different from BG. Ringing chords that kind-of shuffle along with the melody as oppposed to the closed chop chord.

In my opinion, the guitar plays a huge role in the OT sound. Really nailing the beat and creating a rhymthic foundation for dancing. It's important that at key points all the instruments come together and nail those 1 and 3 beats. When you create that indescribable "ooomph" feel, you know you've got it.

Don

[mikeyes]

Since OT (like Irish) is dance music, my mantra is that if you kill the dancer, you are playing too fast <G> Mostly I just try to parallel the fiddle. Our old time band plays a lot of dances and we try to push the dancers a little with pulse (not speed) and that works very well.

I am a big Foghorn String Band fan and they use a three fingered Snuffy Jenkins/Wade Goodrich style of banjo that is a lot like Earl, but plays the melody along with the rest of the band. (To say that you have to only play clawhammer,esp a specific style of clawhammer is not historically correct when you refer to old time music. You will find tenor banjos in the mix if you listen to old records.) It is a good band to listen to because the mandolin can be heard (he plays an F-5) and because you can tell how he plays.

Like any music, you have to listen before you play a lot. That way you have a feel for the music and won't be as tied to BG. Make your band members listen a little and see if they really want to play OT.

Mel Bay Banjosessions

[Red Englemann]

What would be some suggestions to get more of the old time sound.

Here is my two cents. Old time music was produced out of what was available and handed down. If you hear a song, say Sally Goodin,try to interpret it as you remember it and be original. Think of it as something that someone is going to dance to and make it rhythmic.

Most old timey musicains that I like are very original.

red

[Strange1]

What I would have liked to heard on this thread was a link to listen to a given tune played OT and then the same tune played BG style. Wish I had the resources and knowledge to post something like this but sadly I don't. Anyone?.............
BTW, here is a link to an individual take on this very subject However, the author seems to lean toward OT music a bit too much methinks. http://www.dwightdiller.com/bluegrass.html
Jack

[Red Englemann]

What I would have liked to heard on this thread was a link to listen to a given tune played OT and then the same tune played BG style

Try YouTube.

red

[Soupy1957]

My exposure to "old time" backwoods music was:

a) The music seemed to have a slower tempo. (not
always, but most), in my opinion.
b) The lyric was more important than the band.
c) The vocals were unpolished and sometimes a bit
off-key. (I like "unpolished" myself)
d) If you owned any instrument, it didn't matter
WHO made it, or what it was. Just bring it
and play it (resulting in some strange combos
at times).

Random thoughts from
-Soupy1957

[Red Englemann]

My exposure to "old time" backwoods music was:

Good thoughts. Here in East Tennessee, South Western , VA and Western NC is where a significant brand of old time music had it roots.

I recently attended a concert by an 85 year old fiddler named Clyde Davenport, a third generation fiddler with a collect of songs including some Civil War tunes. He explained that when the Union took back the fort at Cumberland Gap, "Fire on the Mountain" was being played on a fiddle. He said that during a time the fiddle was the only instrument the people had. Therefore the styles followed the melody and lyrics were important as you mention. This is great old history.

When I think of BG, the tempo is increased dramatically and those breaks are more like an electric guitar "riff" than a melody. I think that BG is a spectator product where fast pace equals more entertainment or excitment.

I am concentrating on old time with all four of the instruments I play. I have a good selection of Norman Blake's material and lots of old time fiddle.

red

[JGWoods]

Red I think you're right on the money, except maybe the part about speed, maybe. Around here- New England- there's lots of fast playing in Old Time ( or maybe it just seems fast to me?). Then again I don't pay any attention to bluegrass and maybe they play really realy fast, though I can't think of why anyone would. Maybe they don't like the song?

[gnelson651]

pick a fiddle tune like "Soldier`s Joy" and listen to bluegrass and old time versions of it. Usually the backbeat, (the 2 and 4) pushes the 1 and 3 pretty hard in bluegrass. But in old time the backbeat is not so "urgent" and the feel of the song is more laid back. So too the tempo is usually slower.

You're absolutely right on there.

I've been jamming biweekly with an OT fiddle group for about 2 years now but decided to cross over to bluegrass.

At my first BG jam, I tried to play "Soldiers Joy" as I usually do in my break. I quickly found out it didn't work, the beat was way off. Fortunately I quickly recovered and was able to adapt my playing to the BG beat.

Quite a learning experience and a good reason to always listen to what the other players are doing.

[Red Englemann]

Maybe they don't like the song?

# #Great line. When I think of speed I think of Monroe and Scaggs. Everything Ricky does was fast and loud when me and my wife saw him last Winter.

Your point is well taken regarding some old time being fast. I was thinking about some of the Cape Breton material I have listened to. I play fiddle and I like to slow it down and emphysize the shuffles more intentionally and mix up the tempo like I have heard these guys around here do. Blake says he's slowed down and mentioned that Peter Ostrusko has to.

Red

[Michael H Geimer]

Riddle me this, folks ...

I don't play Bluegrass, but neither do I play Old-Timey in the Banjo and Fiddle sense, or even the Cape Brenton sense.

What I do play is that 'tweener' style mentioned earlier ... Carter Family songs, Stanley Brothers duets. I love the Norman and Nancy stuff.

I usually describe the songs as Early American Country, or sometimes Country Blues, and when appropriate I'll say it's done in the Bother Duet Style.

Anyone have a better descriptor for the stuff I play?

(He he he ... I guess the difference between a "Brother Duet" and a "Bother Duet" is for the audience to decide, eh? )

[Mike Buesseler]

Benig,

I suppose you need to put a name on the type of music you play for people who haven't heard you. For my money, I like your stuff and style as well as any music I can think of. I mean it.

I think Early American Country is close enough. That's certainly what I'd call Norman Blake's music (he's my other hero, btw... )

[Soupy1957]

If I had to be "fast & perfect to be accepted in the Bluegrass community, I'd cut up my mando for firewood!

Let the "pros" play fast and perfect; I'm just a steady, slow beginner.


-Soupy1957

[Red Englemann]

I came accross this article on Norman. He had many influences and opinions. He has been my favorite for over 20 years.

red

http://www.acousticguitar.com/issues...verStory.shtml

[Michael H Geimer]

Thanks MikeB!

I gotta get a new space for my recordings. Then I can post something with Renée I singing together. Her talent *significantly* adds to the sound!

Only trouble is, I'm on guitar 99% of the time these days ... so, now we need a mandolin player!

[Michael H Geimer]

Red, thanks for that link ... Norman provided the answer I seek.

BLAKE If you say "old-time music" nowadays, the first thing that comes to mind is the fiddle-and-banjo dance crowd. I feel a little bit put off by that, because while I like that very much and have certainly been involved in that, I just feel that old-time music is a broader thing. It’s sort of like bluegrass. You have this straight blinder approach of what is bluegrass too, and it’s gotten to be so generic. And I think old-time music is kind of generic now. And that’s a little sad, because old-time music is everything that’s ever gone on for the last however many hundred years. It’s certainly been more than just fiddle tunes.

[allenhopkins]

The original old-time musicians didn't know there were "rules"; they played with what they had and in the style they knew. If there was a cello, piano, Autoharp or harmonica player in the group, no one said that he/she wasn't "supposed" to be playing that style of music. Bands like the Allen Brothers featured tenor banjo; the Three Stripped Gears led with banjo-mandolin; the Red Fox Chasers had a lead harmonica player; the Prairie Ramblers had a prominent mandola. Whatever worked.
Playing old-time rather than bluegrass mando, I tend to use a lot of open-string chords, and to play a fast up-and-down rhythm that mimics the fiddle's phrasing. Sometimes I double fiddle melody, or even add simple harmony lines. The wonderful characteristic of the mandolin is that it can shift from rhythm to melody and back.
And I second the recommendation to listen to the Blue Sky Boys if you're thinking about getting into the "brother duet"style. Bill Bolick's mandolin is like a third voice in the group sometimes, and when he uses it for instrumental interludes, he generally just plays the vocal melody. Works beautifully. It's interesting that quite a few of the duets used mandolin -- Monroe Brothers, Louvin Brothers, etc. It's a great fit.

[jmcgann]

It's a great idea to listen to individual performers as well as bands; and don't assume that whatever your local oldtime jam session sounds like is what you should go for...the best oldtime music is just like the best of any style of music- in tune and in time

[Soupy1957]

I hear a lot of "Sacred Harp Music" (like the choir in "Cold Mountain") that is most likely another source for the old time music, along with the Celtic stuff.

-Soupy1957

[Peter Hackman]

I've seen this discussion for about 40 years and it never ceaes to amaze me.

Listen to the New Lost City Ramblers, or, better even, the anthologies and original records they learned from. An extremely varied area of music, very impure, with ingredients from the popular music of the day, along with the blues, church music, and old modal songs that had to be fitted with new music to accomodate, e.g., the guitar, etc. Listen to the many styles of guitar, both fingerpicked and flatpicked, and banjo.

Monroe's BG music took off from some of the
trends, Roy Acuff from others (different instruments:dobro,harmonica,piano);
then there were the McGhee Brothers, mainstays on the Opry, Stringbean, and before him, Uncle Dave Macon. Clayton McMichen, Cliff Carlisle, ...

If there's anything to learn from these older groups it's variety and open-mindedness.

In the early sixties I played in a trio in Stockholm, me on guitar
and sometimes banjo, Gary Johansson banjo and autoharp, and Peter Kaukonen on guitar and mandolin, and we combined these instruments
in various ways to incorporate influences from the Carters, from Bluegrass, and whatever we picked up, that suited our temperaments and backgrounds.
I believe Peter threw in some of the Rev. Davis stuff he knew so well, too.

We didn't think of ourselves as old-time, nor BG, we were just playing music,
but we were definitely a string band - we called ourselves The Koznowski String Band as some kind of non-declaration.

[Jonathan Reinhardt]

such a good discussion. thank you all. strikes home to a mandolin player in the middle.
I have little to add other than, as said well above, true old time is music de jour (du nuit). What you hear/can play is what you got. Nowadays some rules tagalong, but wherever I go (and have gone) , I don't (thankfully didn't) get the boot.
Benigus, allan, johnny, Red and Glenn, great posts, not to exclude others.
It is a joy to let the open strings ring (and slyly stretch the melody abit down the neck!).
Bluegrass is about bluegrass, and you are lucky when you find some who want to and can play it. Of course it is spectator, that's what it was created for.

Want more listening ideas? Marty Stuart. And I second the Skip Gorman suggestion.



rasa
Jonathan Reinhardt

[mythicfish]

... and just in case no one mentioned it: Old-Time music is better than it sounds.

Curt

[Soupy1957]

I'll put a plug in here for the Bethany,CT BMAD (Bluegrass Music and Dance) even though someone will say this should be in the "Regional Jams" section.

As I wander the various rooms and participate in the songs being played (as best I can, which usually means "good" on guitar, and "weak" on Mando), I particularly migrate back to one particular room in the house at this monthly gathering, where the songs being done are more at a "controlled" pace, and there is less "competition" going on. The songs being played are the more "traditional" or "older" songs.

There are OTHER rooms in that house where the instrumentalists are trying to out do each other, and the air is full of competition.

-Soupy1957