De Mureda Ressurrection

[Bob A]

Autopsy photos are always of interest.

Regarding the top resto process: it would be worth your while to have a look at the issue of American Luthiery that contains an article by a fellow, now deceased, named Lundergan (Lundberg? Lundgren? I don't have it at hand, alas). He details his findings inside a similar nondescript Neapolitan bowlback, and reverse-engineers the process of makingh the top and building in the convexity. It would certainly make your process of discovery simpler; no sense in reinventing the wheel.

He removed the top, took off the braces, illustrated the way in which the center cut removed a thin pie-shaped wedge from the lower bout area, and described the original process of gluing up the top and braces.

Also, the article contained an appendix listing the names and dates of scores of Neapolitan luthiers, going back to the earliest Vinaccias. Definitely worth having on hand, as an aid for your BAS.

[Fliss]

Dave, I have to agree with what Keith said, this mandolin found you for a reason, and I think it's lucky that it did.

It's heart-rending to see a beautiful instrument in such a state, I think it will be wonderful if you can bring it back to life. I wish you success, and will definitely follow this thread with interest.

And while I recognise the top is a big enough problem, what on earth are you going to do about the headstock?

Fliss

[dave17120]

Hi Mick, just a quickie today, as I did very little on it yesterday as it was the wife's birthday.
[QUOTE] How did you get the top off?

Well, I teased it off very gently with a wallpaper scraper as per normal. A gentle twist and another section of join opens up. No real need to use steam or heat here, though I do sometimes. You are correct, the binding did not stay intact, as it was cracked and fragmented before I began. If the bits are stubborn, I'll steam them off.

Victor, fortunately for me, the mandolin was not animate in its previous existence, so I am in with a chance of its re-incarnation. Then it will be down to whatever musician it ends up with to 'animate' it.

Just considering Jim's new top suggestion, as I do have some old American tops in the cupboard. I'll have to see what kind of a fit they make, as some have routing round the sound-hole for inlay. AND...... I've not tried bending a spruce top yet, that would be another step towards acquiring the techniques for my own bowl-building project. Probably worth a try.

I think I'll rebuild the top anyway, to see what it looks like. For me the problem is not so much refitting the missing piece, as repairing the cracked bend in the top. The crack is about 2/3 of the width of the top?!? I would want it to be secure, but not have too much 'scaffolding'

Well, lots to think about, and ebay stuff finishes today, so I have a couple of bridges to make. More work on this tomorrow. Dave

[vkioulaphides]

"Victor, fortunately for me, the mandolin was not animate in its previous existence, so I am in with a chance of its re-incarnation."

Eh, well... of course. But equally of course, I was not launching any serious assault on people's metaphysical beliefs, whatever those might be; I was simply voicing my bias in favor of modern instruments. To this bias, then, I must hold fast: once you glean whatever wisdom there is/was in the building of this instrument, I will hold that your greatest contribution to the art and craft of the mandolin will be whatever instrument(s) of your OWN you choose to create some day.

Best of success!

[dave17120]

Thanks Bob, that sounds like an interesting article.... how does one get hold of back copies of American Lutherie? Are they online anywhere?
And if its Lundberg, I do have his book on lutes, which has some superb insights into bowl building, but for me, particularly with regard to mandolin bowl building, does leave some questions unanswered.

And not to worry Victor, I am on version 3 of the plan for the bowlback, am working on two molds, and busy trying to devise a template system for the back ribs based on a Loveri that I have had for years. I will get there in the not too distant future. Its just that I'm not a great fan of flying blind..... I kind of like to know where I'm going and how I'm going to get there.

Thanks for the encouragement Fliss, did you get my last email about your replacement tuners??? I have a half set, if you need the treble side.
Regards to all, Dave

[vkioulaphides]

"...trying to devise a template system for the back ribs..."

Yes, THAT's where it's at, so to speak. A good bowl should not be a Herculean task and, once mastered, it ought to be easy enough to replicate without further ado. Good, carefully measured templates for the staves, a workable mold... that's all it should take—#along, of course, with the patience, skill, and sharp eye of a talented luthier. I certainly do not mean to slight the effort involved, but it just as certainly should not be anything cryptic, mystical. A bowl is a bowl, is a bowl, is a bowl. The more substantive issues to the actual sound and playability of the mandolin are, IMHO, the soundboard and the fingerboard-to-bridge correlations respectively. The bowl is just a resonator, after all.

In fact, I would hazard a speculation that, once bowl-building is stripped of all the unnecessary mystique and presumptive "difficulties" involved, we may well have a proliferation of high-quality modern bowlbacks, and on BOTH sides of the Altantic. And why not? Once a luthier has built one successfully, he makes it one of the models available on his boutique (along, of course, with whatever A-style, F-style, etc. instruments he may already be building). Availability (supply) and players' interest (demand) will feed into each other. Everybody wins.

[Bob A]

www.luth.org is the site. I wasn't able to find the article, but doubtless it's there somewhere. It was indeed Lundberg who wrote it. If all else fails I'll dig it up at home tomorrow.

[Fliss]

Dave, I did get your e-mail thanks, I'm still having problems sending replies to you, but have re-sent, so I don't know if that will reach you.

Unfortunately it's the bass side I need, so I may need to wait till you get a basket case in that has the bass tuners still intact! #

Do you know anywhere I could buy these type of tuners new? #I did a web search and found a supplier in Australia that seems to have them, but the maker seems to be a German brand called Rubner, and I haven't been able to find out more. #

Apologies for slightly sidetracking this thread! #I'll add some De Mureda content - I've been interested to note a few of these coming up on E-bay lately, but not as ornate as this one of yours, Dave. #

Fliss

[Bob A]

Here is the reference. Definitely worth looking into.

This is from issue #46. Back issues are still available, according to the website; #36 and earlier are only obtainable as bound volumes. I'd recommend this issue to anyone interested in bowlback construction methods, or for the list of Neapolitan makers.

[dave17120]

Many thanks Bob, Big Red Book of Am Lutherie now ordered, issue 46 no longer being available individually. Looking forward to its arrival.

I agree with you entirely Victor, bowl making will become routine one day, I hope, (though I do think the different bowl shapes do help to create the distinctive sounds...) and attention needs to be focused on the top. But the first of anything is always the most difficult. You know, 'its easy when you know how.....' so true.

Fliss, I have other sets of tuners, not identical, but certainly period, I might be prepared to part with?!?
Dave

[Fliss]

Dave, I've sent you a pm! Thanks.

Fliss

[vkioulaphides]

"... I do think the different bowl shapes do help to create the distinctive sounds..."

Oh, certainly! The bowl of my 2004 Calace, for example —both deep AND long— surely must contribute to the richness and fullness of the instrument's lower/middle range.

I never meant to suggest that the kind/shape/size of bowl is somehow insignificant to the sound of the instrument, but, in many important ways, secondary. I suspect that bowlback construction has fallen behind that of other types of mandolins due to some unwarranted and irrational "Cryptic Art Theory", whereby constuction of a decent bowl is deemed beyond the skills and abilities of common mortals living nowadays, and is some sort of "lost art", nostalgically recalled by the old and the old-fashioned.

To that theory, my reply is simply... bah!

[Bob A]

Talk about your bowl shapes - infinite variety, no question. I have examples from instruments that require serious padding to fit into a standard case, to those which couldn't be stuffed into a case without totally destroying the mandolin in the process. It's somewhat surprising to think that there seems to be no ideal size or shape for a bowl; so unlike the violin, which is standardised to within a few mm, and seemed to spring full-blown and perfect from the hands of the originalors.

Could this in some way be lurking behind the Curse of the Mandolin? Is this why Serious Musicians refuse to admit us to The Presence?

(I had a recent email exchange with a violin teacher, who advertised her willingness to take on adult students; when I identified myself as someone who played mandolin for decades, she suggested I not even consider taking up her time, implying that anyone so far gone in iniquity was a hopeless prospect for learning so technical and difficult an instrument as a violin. I was advised to stick to the mandolin, and leave Art music to those more suited. I remain annoyed.)

[vkioulaphides]

Oh, Bob... there are instrumental teachers galore, ranging from the wonderful to the, ehm... not quite wonderful (a.k.a. LOUSY teachers ). I cannot, of course, pronounce final judgment on the one you refer to, but I seriously doubt she belongs to the, ah... upper decile of music educators.

[Bob A]

Thank you for your sympathetic response, Victor. It is of course possible that she was quite correct in her response; but with all the fiddles cluttering up the house, I do plan on getting at least enough instruction to permit me to noodle about without causing myself an injury. Certainly I won't be found cluttering the stage at Carnegie as a performer; sweeping up, perhaps. (I admit to blatant fishing for sympathy in my previous post, and am quite mollified).

[dave17120]

OK.... yesterday I began the reconstruction of the top. It looked fair once it was cleaned up (underside that is...) and the detcahed piece place in the hole. The thing that concerns me most at the moment, (apart from the solution to the split in the top bend) is the fact that the sides have been pared right down to get the purfling in. When glued back, I'm not sure how strong this would be, as in some places, the sides would only be glued to the edging and not the top at all!!
Anyway, here is photo of the underside...

[dave17120]

So I figured the first task was to straighten up the severe dip in the top, prior to trying to re-glue...
For this I usually use a hot damp pad and clamps. The next 2 photos show the clamp setup from both sides, in my attempt to re-shape the dip back into something approaching a normal top shape at this point.

[dave17120]

and....

[dave17120]

I unclamped it this morning to see how it was doing and to let it dry out properly.... results are below, a much better shape near the bend, but the lower part of the bout is still to be done.

[dave17120]

And here is the reverse.... I left the pad in place for the photo, so that its size and location were obvious. It now looks a lot better shape.
The small caul in the centre of the clamp seems to have worked well with the flexible top caul to create a nice curvature again.

I must start on the head and back now, as well I think.
Dave

[dave17120]

Have been working on the head for the last couple of days, whilst the top dries out after its sauna.
The head looked a mess, because not only was it split in two, and very dirty, it had also been liberally inlaid with MOP, seriously weakening its structure. Once cleaned up a bit, remnants of MOP and glue removed, it was possible to see how it fitted together. See below... it lokks reasonable, the main problem seems to be the very narrow central section where it split.

[dave17120]

Above it is just pushed together, but I was able to see that it was essentially all there and worth gluing as it was. Below is the gluing setup, the small clamps on the side are to press together the thin pieces of the front of the head. The larger clamp presses the full thickness just above the neck.

[dave17120]

and a side view....

[dave17120]

When unclamped later, I was able to hold the top of the head, and the repair was able to support the weight of the rest of the bowl..... a good sign!
Front........

[dave17120]

and back.........