a classical Embergher reproduction

[Jim Garber]

Here is as good as I can get inside my Pandini. These look to be about .5 inch (1.27cm) in width. You can see the ribs thru them in this photo.

Jim

[vkioulaphides]

Thank you, Jim. NOW I know what you all meant, all along. On some Greek instruments I have seen, the material seems to be some sort of hard, felt-like textile— often in some beautiful, deep wine-red hue, or blue, or green, etc. (Sort of like the material you find on pool tables, whatever THAT is...) The argument I have heard from luthiers is that, once it is just about soaked in glue (on only one side, of course), it expands; once placed on the interior of the bowl, and as it dries up naturally, it contracts, thereby pulling the staves together. This, to my knowledge, is the force that was alluded to earlier, i.e. the force that pulls the staves together; the force that holds them DOWN onto the mold is exerted by the (whatever) clamp mechanism of the luthier's choice.

"As far as I can tell, these [i.e. lutes] are almost always made by gluing ribs to the neck and tailblocks and then re-enforcing the joins by paper, linen, shavings or whatever once the bowl is removed from the mould."

Yes, that is the order of events, as I am familiar with it.

Now... how cohesive can wood-shavings be? They may, of course, have the advantage of reflecting vibrations best of all other, alternative materials. I would suspect, that is, that anything soft would absorb same, thereby muting, deadening the sound of the instrument. Hmm...

[brunello97]

Victor,

Your description of the wood-shaving-shrinkage = interior-stave-binding is interesting and has the intuitive type of sense I admire in traditional craftwork.

In a previous incarnation I was fascinated with trying to build the hour-glass shaped drums played in traditional Afro-Cuban religious rhythms. I visited a old-time cooper's shop thinking I could learn something about stave (rib) tapering and forming. The man was eye-balling the shaping of the staves, not so slowly adjusting each piece with spoke-shave type tools. Very quickly and obviously accurately because the barrels were watertight. A hot iron hoop (on the outside) was fit around the circumference, which after cooling, contracted to pull the staves together. Kind of the inverse of what you describe but similar concept with different materials.

Jim, thanks for the great picture. I never was quite sure what anyone meant by 'shavings', thinking it was more a matt of smaller bits, kind of like oriented-strand-board. Your picture and Victor's description and Brian's experiments really cleared this all up well.

Victor, does your description imply the strips of shaving would go in after the bowl is made?

Mick

[vkioulaphides]

"Victor, does your description #imply the strips of shaving would go in after the bowl is made?"

Yes. Italian old-timers —or is it old-tymers? '' — used the jargon non-word cordellare, meaning (in equivalent non-English) "ribboning". You get the idea: "ribbons" of whatever material, would be glued to the interior of the bowl, AFTER it would come off the mold. Speaking of material, porous, parchment paper, or anything with an adequate swell/shrink effect would do the job.

One must not confuse this layer that will REMAIN as part of the instrument with whatever other material one lays down between the mold and the nascent bowl, so that glue does not seep through and make a mess; the latter will obviously NOT be part of the finished instrument.

You know... nothing like experience. Most present-day luthiers I know personally have plans, blueprints, stencils, what have you. They all, however, swear to it that their forebears/mentors under whom they apprenticed had the very same equipment, yet never consulted it. # In other words, the legend is that the old-old-old-timers had built so many hundreds (if not THOUSANDS) of bowls that they did it all "by eye". Amazing, no?

But at this point in the mandolin's development, it is important, indeed crucial to salvage and incorporate whatever information we have gleaned from the past. And, perhaps, some day the apprentices of Brian, Graham, Mick, and their peers will speak in nearly mystical devotion of your skills and talents. #

Best of luck to all of you, brave friends!

[vkioulaphides]

As "a picture is worth a thousand words", let me take you, visually at least, into two Greek lutheries: Dino Bersis was in Astoria, New York, and has recently moved to the Midwest; I spent some time at his shop, when it was a subway-ride away from my home.

By way of disclaimer: I am not advertising any of the luthiers I am about to reference, but only do so for you to navigate their sites, if you wish, and get a visual idea of the process(es) involved. You will surely see, for example, finished, neck-less bowls hanging from Dino's wall.

[vkioulaphides]

Greece's only true mass-producer, the company of Dionysios Mátsikas. Go under "Our Shops", then click the legend under the glamorously resort-like # factory in Messolonghi— incidentally, the historic lagoon town, where Lord Byron died (of typhoid fever, I think), sacrificing fame and fortune for somebody ELSE's country, while the city was besieged by the Ottomans.

OK, OK... back to the real topic: a true manufacturer, Mátsikas & Co. You may see the bending irons, and other tools of the trade. Here goes:

Mátsikas & Co.

[labraid]

From the photo it is a certainty now, shavings at the end. Thanks, Jim.
Guess I could flour the form........
This all opens up the world of tacking the staves in place to dry as well, interesting...

[Jim Garber]

Guess I could flour the form........

I believe that old Luigi developed an early form of a substance he called il teflono

Jim

[Alex Timmerman]

Hello all,

For those who haven't got the work posters Brian is working from, they are on line again and <a href="http://cgi.ebay.de/Drawing-Plan-Poster-of-a-Embergher-Mandolin_W0QQitemZ230031301126QQihZ013QQcategoryZ1 0179Q
QssPageNameZWD2VQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">here is a link to the Ebay page where they are for sale. They are much bigger in real (and for those who havent seen them before) they give an idea what we are talking about here.</a>

The photo of the No.3 Embergher Mandolin beneath is an image of the very same instrument.


Best, Alex

[vkioulaphides]

How absolutely GORGEOUS! Thank you, Alex. Soooooo... haven't you convinced Hendrik to build something like this yet? I am not suggesting that such an instrument would be easy to build but... wouldn't it at least be possible?

[Jim Garber]

My feeling is that something that looked like this in terms of workmanship is very possible. Duplicating the Embergher magic in terms of tone, playability, etc is prob considerably more difficult. I would think a luthier would have to be very familiar with the instruments in order to come close to the old ones -- very similar to the American luthiers who are attempting to copy the Loars.

Jim

[labraid]

So when you coming up to Montreal with your prizes, Jim? You might need some of that il teflono to get through a border crossing with so many sharp axes.

The new staves are ready to bend. Pictures tomorrow! (Hopefully not disastrous)

[Jim Garber]

I would love to come to visit. Maybe I could convince a few others of my eastern seaboard cohorts with armloads of choice Italian mandolins. Ah... a dream...

Jim

[vkioulaphides]

Ah, I remember traveling with my bass —and this, mind you, well before the current Age of Absurdity— and being asked at a checkpoint "and what do you have INSIDE that instrument, sir?" Yes, break out the teflon!

But, back to instruments: we need, at some point, to reach a level of production. No, I don't mean necessarily of MASS-production, but at least past the stage of prototypes only. I see that as feasible, if also difficult to arrive at. But hope springs eternal...

I am not even adamant about exact replication, as long as the new, based on the old (however loosely) is a good instrument. THAT is my bottom line, as it were.

[labraid]

Could you explain that thought in a bit more detail Victor?

[vkioulaphides]

Well, Brian...

I know that I may be clobbered to death (with Embergher mandolin-cases, no less ) for my views, but, hey... I am no "Neapolitan general"— although, of course, I do like Neapolitan mandolins.

So, then: I am a player, not a historian. It matters little to me, whether a new instrument is 100% identical to an old one, for as glorious and august as the archtype may have been. Besides, I think that this pursuit of the Perfect Replica may/will lead talented luthiers like yourself, Brian, to 100% madness. I'd hate to see that happen...

So, Victor's Dream goes like this: you learn what there is to be learned from Embergher's heritage; you conduct your own experiments, to see what works best; and finally, FINALLY, you come to the Brian Dean Model 1A. I respect that wholeheartedly, and would gladly become customer #1, as soon as time and money permits. There will be others, too...

But the idea is NOT to lose sleep over becoming Embergher's reincarnation, but building the best instrument YOU can. THEN, you put that wisdom into some sort of a production-line. No, not HUNDREDS of instruments per year— for which there is no adequate demand, anyhow. But, say, why not several instruments per year? "Build it, and they will come", is the motto. I don't see, in other words, why mandolinists would not try their hand at a fine, modern bowlback built right here in North America, if it is available, reasonably-priced, and of good quality. Luthiers building OTHER instruments have done it; why not mandolin-builders? We NEED you, Brian!

All that requires getting past the stage of experimentation. I am patient, very patient... still, at some point, once you have the right-sized mold, the right clamps/gauges/calibers/etc.etc., you want to reach the point where you can turn out instruments, GOOD instruments, unburdened by the concern of whether "Embergher would have done exactly so". Such metaphysics gets in the way. Scrap it and get on with the present, say I.

Due apologies to all those I may surely have offended with my populist/democratic bias(es). One can be both idealistic AND pragmatic, both at the same time.

[Jim Garber]

To clarify what I said above:
I agree whole-heartedly with Victor. My feelings are that we can learn from the instruments of the past but that the outer trappings of these instruments merely hold the more elusive inner aspects of tone and playability that makes these vintage ones so desirable. The contemporary luthier can copy a photo of an instrument but it takes more to duplicate the tonal qualities that this instrument can produce. That is where the genius or the luthier resides.

Having said all that: I also find the aesthetic of the Emberghers quite appealing.

I must also confess: that until I actually have mine in my hand -- hopefully in a few weeks -- I can't say that I even like these mandolins. I have never had the opportunity to actually play one, tho I have held one in terrible condition in my hands.

Jim

[labraid]

Thanks for the encouragement Victor. I feel more and more this mandolin plays some role in the future... I have every intention, however, to start from the work of a master, I've had quite a decent dose of experimentation in my short career and am ready to settle down a bit. Time will tell!

I am happy today, seems the secrets of this mandolin have been winning til now, but today it relented. So here's a photo.

Now to look for some _brass_ pins ;)

[Jim Garber]

Nice (and large) colorful pushpins, Brian. I was curious how the ribs meet at the endblock, never having seen one in person and in disassembly.

Jim

[otterly2k]

I've had quite a decent dose of experimentation in my short career and am ready to settle down a bit. Time will tell!

So you say, Brian.... but I'll believe it when I see it! I think you may have an experimental nature...

[vkioulaphides]

... and THIS is precisely what I meant earlier, about the ribcage-like molds: since they are not solid (as Brian's is), they allow the luthier to pass clamps through them, thereby fastening the staves onto the outer arches that define the curvature of the bowl.

I've simply got to get a scanner! Nevertheless, I trust that the contraption I am describing is easy enough to visualize: think of the hull of a ship, still incomplete (i.e. without the outer planks), upside down, as it is normally seen in shipyards.

No push-pins needed in that case, of course. But, hey... whatever works!

[Jim Garber]

This from an oud making site, but I think this is what Victor is talking about.


The site is here.

Jim

[vkioulaphides]

PRECISELY! Just think smaller, of course...

Thanks, Jim.

[labraid]

...though I don't see any convenient place to clamp to in that hollow mould. Anyone else think he's probably using tape to clamp with?
I'd also like to say, that while his oud mould is perfectly round, the Embergher is not, and this complex form would likely complicate such a hollow venture (cough, cough). It's already complicating mine. ;)

The other non-pushpin method which I have great faith in, and which I will try next time, is a series of thin, strong ribbons strung under the ribs, which works as a clamp when doubled back, pulled toward the joint, pinned down somewhere convenient to hold. In fact, I might try this Monday as I don't really like the idea of putting any more holes in this mould.. Just need to thread it under the current ribs and go to town. Pictures to come.

[labraid]

Hey, what are those litte white things in the tailblock??