a classical Embergher reproduction

[Bob A]

With regard to warping of necks, Embergher fretboards are several times thicker than Neapolitan instruments; they also are asymmetrical in cross-section, that is, they are thicker on the bass side. This should go a long way toward providing stability.

The mold depicted above does not seem to have the compound recurve that is evident on the model 7 pictured. The bowls I'm familiar with have that pinched-looking recurve as the bowl slopes into the neck joint. I don't know whether it's my faulty interpretation of the photos, or if the drawings that provided the basis for the construction were of a simpler bowl design. (Did the lower-end Emberghers have a more neary Neapolitan bowl?).

[vkioulaphides]

A digression, but (I hope) a forgivable one, as it IS relevant: belatedly, I just looked at the stunningly beautiful instruments that Brian has been building. How exciting, that a luthier of such talent would be devoting time and effort on our beloved bowlback, especially harking back to the venerable Luigi Embergher. I can only wish Brian the very best of luck, and wait with bated breath for the final product.

... or is that spelled "baited"?

../...

Back to our regular programming.

[Jim Garber]

I don't know if this helps, Bob. Here is a photo that Martin so expertly took of the neck joint of my Type A, currently under the care of Dr. Springall.

Jim

[Neil Gladd]

Brian, I hadn't looked at your website until Victor mentioned it, but I see that you are a fellow Virginia Tech graduate! I may have to order a mandolin with a turkey inlay...

[Bob A]

Still hard to tell, from the photos. The Model 7 looks more deeply indented as the bowl sides shift from convex to concave before joining the neck block.

Bated (abated) is the usage I'd go for, whilst trembling on the edge of my seat.

[Graham McDonald]

'morning,

Like Victor, I have seen lots of old bowlbacks with unplayable actions, but the neck between the nut and the body join at the 10th fret is almost always straight, even on cheap instruments with a veneer over a very light timber (poplar?) neck. A combination of neck block rotation and some sinking of the soundboard around the soundhole is the usual cause, not a warping of the six inches or so of actual neck.

That photo of a mandolin moulds is from a museum somewhere in the northern part of Italy if memory serves, rather than an actual workshop, but I am intrigued by theose circular spring clamps, if that is what they are.

Brian, A lightly animal glued block shouldn't need a mallet to separate. A sharp butter knife will pop it off. Violin makers often glue the fingerboard on for neck shaping with a sheet of newspaper between the fingerboard and neck which makes it even easier to remove.

The Calace catlogue is downloadable as a pdf, and has several useful photos (rather low-rez) of their building process. As an extra bit of, possibly, useless information, a lot of the Neapolitan builders spliced the headstock on using a triangular splice/tenon in the same way as classical guitar necks were made. This was often covered by the veneering which was often done over the whole neck and head. A rather tricky job I have always thought! The solid maple necks of the Embergher seem a better way to do it, though it does require more accuracy in getting the ends of the ribs to meet the neck.

cheers

[brunello97]

Graham, I am glad you are now involved with this great conversation. I am learning an amazing amount, as is often the case at the Cafe.

The assymetrical fretboards that BobA speaks of is interesting. Would any of the Embergherians have a view of that to share?

Is the V-shaped neck section of the Roman style mandolin a structural design decision, an aid to playability or both?

(I have what Jim has titled a 'boatback' mandolin of early 20th C. US manufacturer. It features a V section neck with guitar-style turned down neck block at the body. Quite nice craft on it and not much chance of it coming out of alignment. Did the V section neck get appropriated by any other US makers?)

If I recall correctly where I DLed the shop photo posted, it was from a 'museum' somewhere near Napoli, I believe.

Any concensus on the bowl to neck recurve-evident in Jim's picture. Is this an essential feature of the Embergher models?

This is getting good now.

Mick

[labraid]

There will be a definite rib recurve near the neck. Jim's photo above shows a faint one, not like the model I am working off of which is very evident (and graceful I might add).
Thanks, Graham. I admit, a small dab of glue would hold the block well for the pre-rib steps, but really, it engages quite well without glue, and stays in place without trouble.
Neil, some of my best memories in Blacksburg. Built my first instruments there, walked the Appalachian Trail weekends, and thanks to US law, learned to brew better beer than one can buy, at 18. hehe.

Tomorrow morning the first ribs are going on. Pictures to follow.

[Jim Garber]

Any concensus on the bowl to neck recurve-evident in Jim's picture. Is this an essential feature of the Embergher models?

I took a good flip thru Ralf Leenen and Barry Pratt's excellent Embergher book and it does seem that the higher end mandolins have the recurved whereas the student model (like my lowly tipo A) are rather straight.

BTW check out this earlier thread where many of us discussed similar topics.

Jim

[Graham McDonald]

Thanks Jim for reminding us of that previous thread and Ralf's link to the museum site. The google translation is delightful, and I think we should all stop calling them strings and only refer to 'harmonic ropes'

[Bob A]

The fretboard on my Pecoraro model 5 is about 5mm thick on the bass side at 12th fret; it tapers to about 3.5mm on the treble side. The board is radiused. My understanding is this offset is meant to reduce strain on the fretting hand.

While the Vee neck seems to me to offer considerable resistance to warping from string tension, I believe that was not the primary reason for the design. (My belief is based on faith rather than fact, alas. And the fact that the neck is considerably narrower than the Neapolitan design may well give the lie to my faith.)

The overall elegance of Embergher's instruments, especially the higher-end consert mandolins, and their graceful archings, and the lines of the neck, all seem to flow from a concept of grace of form. While the Neapolitans have their own charm, nothing says elegance in engineering so well as one of these Roman instruments. Even to lining the bowl with shaved pine instead of paper, every detail of construction seems to have been scrutinised with an eye towards maximising performance.

Even though most of my playing is on the tubby, chubby Neapolitans, just picking up the Pecoraro is rather thrilling. One tends to want to fondle it; the hands seem to explore the surfaces for the mere pleasure of understanding the shapes of the surface.

Ahem.

Well, some violins have the same effect on me, and I can't even play them. I think sometimes there's a transfer of information between luthier and player on a tactile level that goes to the heart of the art, so to speak.

[Martin Jonas]

I agree with Bob that there is an ineffable elegance to the curves of the Embergher bowl and neck, and the graceful transition from one to the other at the neck joint, that makes the Neapolitan shapes look ever so lightly clumsy by comparison, graceful though they are in their own right. Looking at my own Tipo A and comparing it to the higher-end models I've seen in person and in photos (I've seen and played Alison Stephens' 5bis and her Pecoraro mandola, and have seen Frances Taylor's 5bis close up), there is indeed less of a recurve in the Tipo A, but it still shares the elongated shape of the bowl. It's just that there is a bit more of an angle at the neck joint instead of the staves asymptotically approaching the line of the neck.

I should also say that in some ways I prefer the student model over the 5bis: the concert model is much heavier and needs to be played with rather a lot of deliberation to coax the tone out of it. Of course it then amply rewards the effort put in to play it. The student model is lighter and more responsive, a more informal and less intimidating instrument for playing at home for fun.

Martin

[Alex Timmerman]

Hello Brian and all others here,

There are of course differences within all the Embergher types and models. And when examined closely even differences in design within every type and model through the years in which the Embergher mandolins were made.

The best thing here is first to know which model you are making.
Brian, did you buy the drawing that has been (and still is) for sale at e-Bay´s from my good friend ´Alipio´ (Lorenzo Lippi)? If so (and I think you mentioned something like that you work from drawings in an earlier post), then the measurements you made your mould of are for an Embergher Orchestra model No.3.

This model (the highest ´plain´ Orchestra model) is certainly different from the lower types and models ànd the higher soloist Embergher mandolins.

Therefore, if you can inform us about which work drawings you use, we can all here have a better insight in what model you are copying.
Perhaps and if you like, I can place some photos/close ups of the original Embergher mandolin for a better understanding here.

By the way, do you know the sound of a No. 3 Embergher mandolin? If not I will see what I can do for you with regard to some pieces on a CD-R. It is always good to hear the right sound in your head while working towards a mandolin of the same kind. #


Best and success!

Alex

[labraid]

Alex, a very generous offer, I'd love to have some clips of model specific playing. And yes, this is being taken from the Lippi drawings. More soon.

[labraid]

A frustrating day yesterday, with as much wondering as working. Did Embergher place his shavings after making the bowl, was it a two piece form perhaps, how the heck did he get a good, even clamping pressure on the first few staves (they buckle if you clamp too much, don't contact evenly if you don't).
I have some things to mull over the next few days before going for a second round. The photo above is my second attempt at lining the bowl. The first was a disaster, rubber bands whipping around loose shavings, tearing them, and then finding out my mathematics were wrong as regards the various circumferences of the bowl, and the first few began already to curve off of true. Errors corrected, now to see if this way of applying the staves over shavings works. If not, my plan is to build the form gluing only lateral joints, and applying the shavings, wet, in the end (it works beautifully this way with cloth/paper, but my thoughts were that the original makers used these shavings with a dual purpose in mind: one, to reinforce the bowl, but two, to give a medium that separates easily once the bowl is constructed/glued over it. I'm less sure about that second one now...)
Well, other work calls. I'll pick up on this in a week or so.

[vkioulaphides]

"Did Embergher place his shavings after making the bowl?"

To be clear about your question, Brian: do you mean the lining of the bowl? If so, yes, to my knowledge —of general practice, not specifically Embergher's— the lining is done well after the bowl is otherwise completed.

But I may be totally off the mark...

[dave17120]

Hi there, have just found this thread. As a lowly Irish trad junkie, I don't often visit the elevated heights of the classical forum, except to have a look at the 'bowls of note' now and again. Jim, how come you didn't tell me this thread was here??? Why not the builders and restorers?? Anyway......

# Brian, I too have the Lippi drawings, and have got as far as trying to work up a detailed plan, in order to try and solve some of the logistical problems of bowl building. I am on my second version of a mold to build the bowl on, so I'm a little behind you, but via the planning have been wrestling with the same problems.... particularly the exact shape for the ribs, how to plain the edges at a slight angle for a good fit, and how to press down AND together at the same time whilst gluing?!?

# With regard to 'lining the bowl' I'm not quite sure what you are doing with the shavings, and why??? (I know I'm thick, but....) Having repaired over 50 Italian bowls to date, most have the ribs, then a layer of newsprint, then the lining paper. I always imagined that the coloured lining paper went in after the bowl was made, and the newspaper was what enabled the builders to get the thing off the mold. You know, grease the mold, apply newspaper with paper glue, then build the bowl on that! The grease allows you to get the bowl off and leaves the paper stuck inside the bowl. A bit like papier mache I guess.
Feasible or not???

# I'll try and sort some pictures out of what I have been doing now I have found this thread.
# All the best, looking forward to the next posting.... Dave

[labraid]

Hi Dave,
Well, that explains things pretty well. The shavings are what Embergher used, what I've been trying to figure out is at what point were they applied, and how. I am the sort who likes to try things wrong at least once, so I can say I tried it another way (which, in all hopes, is occasionally better). I like the newspaper idea, but the grease has me wondering. Wouldn't it get in the way of gluing the second layer?

[Jim Garber]

My Pandini is lined with shavings. Perhaps, if you speak Italian, you can email him.

Jim

[dave17120]

Hi Brian, I think you are right about the grease..... guess you can't take analogies too far.
(Co-incidentally I do know a Spanish chap who makes wooden statues for those religious parades, and because they are carried, they have to be light. He achieves this by hollowing them out once built, which he is able to do, as someone said earlier, by gluing a sheet of newspaper through the centre enabling him to split it later for hollowing. Perhaps the newspaper alone would facilitate removal from the mold???!!! Hmmm)

I see now about the shavings..... but were they to assist in removal from the mold... or to strengthen the interior of the bowl?? I see your dilemma. If the former, they need to go on the mold, if the latter, they could go in after.... perhaps.
I think I'm sticking with newsprint.

Incidentally, in one bowl I disassembled.... you know, just to see what was going on under the end clasp..... I found small holes in the ends of the staves/ribs, which suggests to me, that at least some makers tacked that end to the tail piece during gluing. Naturally no tacks remained.... just the hole. I wonder how they got away with that without splitting the very narrow ends of the ribs.

Can't wait for the photos of your system for clamping up the ribs... I use elastic bands a lot, but have been unable to figure a system to get sideways pressure as well.

Keep up the good work, Dave

[dave17120]

Oh yes, I meant to ask.... how did you decide on the exact shapes for your ribs/staves. Not easy to draw accurate plans from the photos. Perhaps you are shaping each to fit individually as you go along??? ....another problem I have been wrestling with!! Dave

[labraid]

dang, can't sleep this morning, can`t seem to escape this work even in my dreams!
Well, contemplating the newspaper method, I came across the same problem--how do you remove the bowl. And the answer is now simple, in my head anyways. The first layer can have no glue--this will be wetted shavings which will, by grace of the water, stick to the form _as if_ glued. This, just long enough to begin applying a second layer of either shavings or newspaper soaked in wetted glue. Then to remove excess moisture and let dry completely. At this point, I'd think one would need a set of new markings on the bowl, a map of where to begin applying ribs, some sort of paper templates which will let us mark the appropriate lines.
After that point, I have several ideas about how to attach ribs, one involving flexible spring rod, but that will have to wait for the moment...

[vkioulaphides]

On the subject of the mysterious —to me— "wood shavings": are we talking about some sort of small, wooden cleats, running along the interior joints between staves? That would be in line with common practice on bowed string instruments.

Jim, do you have an image of the interior of your Pandini (or your Embergher) that shows exactly what we are talking about? That would certainly help me visualize the actual thing we are discussing.

If so, due consideration must go into perpetuating this practice (or not). I can tell you that, if ANYthing buzzes and rattles inside a bowed string instrument, it is invariably such a cleat, come loose. In fact, to speak of personal experience, I have switched to canvas strips as interior supports on the various seams of my bass. Canvas will obviously NEVER rattle and, even if loose, it can easily be peeled off and replaced. Ah, the wonders of surgery...

Granted, of course, that any such procedure on the mandolin is truly MICROsurgery but, before attaching anything to the interior of the instrument, please consider the question of how it would be removed and replaced in the course of routine maintenance.

[Graham McDonald]

Brian,

My ideas about making a mandolin bowl are very much informed by the approach of lute/oud makers. As far as I can tell, these are almost always made by gluing ribs to the neck and tailblocks and then re-enforcing the joins by paper, linen, shavings or whatever once the bowl is removed from the mould. Robert Lundberg's series of articles for American Lutherie which the #GAL have republished in a book, has lots of info on this method of construction, and the oud building book written by 'Dr Oud' who is from Vancouver has a similar approach. There is also a website by a student of Dr Oud (whose name escapes me at the moment) that documents his oud building project. Worth checking out via a google (though doubtless someone will supply a URL) if you didn't know about them.

My impression from pulling apart a few bowlbacks is that there was a fair amount of 'fudge factor' (is that an Australian term?) in the way they go together and that the linings, usually paper, can hide a multitude of sins. I suspect the Emberghers are a level or two above the average bowlback! I once had a 5 bis in my workshop many yaesr ago for some minor repair, without any idea of what it was, but it struck me then as the most gorgeous bowlback mando I had ever seen. I presume it is still somewhere in Sydney, hopefully being played.

Good luck with the next stage

cheers

[Martin Jonas]

Victor: in Roman mandolins, the entire inner lining of the bowls is made up of wide strips of wood shavings. This replaces the paper lining used in Neapolitan mandolins. On my Embergher, each strip is about 3cm wide and they run transversely across the bowl, at right angles to the staves. The orientation of the strips shown in Brian's photo above looks about right to me, although I can't say if they would have been applied to the mould or to the inside of the bowl after assembly. I'm however pretty sure that there is only one layer of shavings, so i don't think Brian's theory is correct, at least as far as it concerns Embergher's method. A two-layer method may of course work for him.

Martin