What is Irish Mandolin?

[mikeyes]

No, this is not one of those philosophical posts that asks to have the undefinable defined, I am just curious to see why anyone even thinks that there is an Irish (I won't use the work Celtic, which usually means Irish anyway) style of mandolin the way there is with fiddle, banjo, accordion, whistle, etc.

My interest has been raised by several issues on this board.

First, where are the "Irish Mandolin" CDs? In Bluegrass, Jazz, Choro, even Klezmer you can find a number of CDs that are still in print and thriving. Those that are out there are by members of this board (and Mick Moloney) most of whom are not Irish citizens. I say the latter because there seems to be no impetus in Ireland to develop a critical mass of mandolinists and develop a cadre of expert mandolin players. I don't think there is the interest there the way the banjo (or bouzouki) has caught on. The players most often named are only part time mandolinists and are better known for playing larger coursed instruments.

Second, What is distinctive about the existing use of mandolin in Irish music? To me it seems like it is neither fish nor fowl, there are banjo like triplets, occasional homage to fiddles and other instruments, but nothing that strikes you right between the eyes as "Irish mandolin.". The musicianship on such efforts as Dan B.'s "Shatter the Calm" is superb but I get the impression that he is developing a lot of the style on his own and is not influenced by other Irish mandolin players. (Dan, you might comment on that observation.) I listen to Simon Mayor and I say, "Man, this guy is good!" but he does not seem to have antecedents either (he acknowledges this) and he is playing in keys I don't recognize as belonging to the tunes.
So far, it seems that the mandolin is a stepchild to Irish music.

Third, and this is a correlate of the first issue, most of the elite level mandolinists seem to be in North America. (Not that there are that many.) This is probably natural since the vast majority of mandolin players reside in the States and Canada - the proof, since we don't have real numbers, is the existence of a viable mandolin industry driven by bluegrass but encompassing makers, recordings, and live shows plus this list and Co-Mando.
Will Irish music on the mandolin develop here instead of in Ireland? There are plenty of sophisticated influences available to a mandolinist in NA that could help such an effort. If you want to listen to one of these, get the Gaelic Roots album and listen to John McGann playing his set, killer stuff!

So my question boils down to "Where is the mandolin style in Irish music?" It doesn't seem to be in Ireland, so are we developing it in NA without knowing we are? If so, how can we encourage it and make it wonderful?

Mel Bay Banjosessions

[danb]

Well, the use of the mandolin and tenor banjo both date back to around the 19-teens, and probably a bit after that even. I would put forth that there isn't as firmly established of a "way to play Irish Mandolin" as there is a "way to play Irish Uillean pipes", simply because it hasn't been used in Irish music as long.

Then again, you'll soon find there is a "Clare style", a "Donegal Style", a "Tyrone Style", a "North Dublin style", and soon you're down to naming individual players. Irish music is about organic variety and regional flavor. I think you'll find that's basically the secret to it, at first it looks like there is a style but soon you are faced with a group of unique players cross-influencing each other, and none of them is divisible into a "person playing generic Irish mandolin".

And sure, on my disk a lot of the stuff is my own tricks, but I'm not really being particularly inventive.

"Creativity is a function of the obscurity of your source matierial"

[mikeyes]

Dan,

I like your "stuff", just like I like Mick Moloney's, Roger Landes', and Simon Mayor's stuff. My question as to whether an established style (or even an evolving style, which is more likely) is hampered by a lack of enough role models. I postulate that the reason for such is that most Irish music is played in sessions and the madnolin is lost in a session and as a result there are not a large number of sessioners playing the mandolin. Subsequently there are not enough people to generate a critical mass of players (in both senses of the word, there is very little, if any, critical viewing of the few records that we have and there are not enough mandolin players to generate any heat or light.) Also there are few stage performers who feature the mandolin alone.

I went back into the archives and looked at the comments from performers. There is no doubt that there are master mandolinists playing Irish music. It's just that I never get a chance to hear them play and that is probably true of a lot of ITM fans.

The banjo has been in Irish music (on a performance level) since the '60s according to Mick Moloney, and now you can't swing a cat without hitting a banjo player. But the banjo is loud and raucous, the antithesis of the mandolin, and can be heard in a session just like the whistle, accordion, flute, fiddle, and even the zouk (because of the lower range) while the mandolin is possibly the only instrument that is swallowed up.

I think that there is a lot of potential in the mandolin and that it is not being utilized to its fullest because of these factors. With today's instant communication, it is unlikely that regional styles of mandolin will evolve. It hasn't happened all that much with the banjo (except possibly for London)and most regional styles have been hallmarked by one or two master players in each region who epitomise the style. To that extent we have the Milwaukee/London style (Dan B.), the Philadelphia style, the New Mexico Style, etc.

The banjo may be the culprit. Most of the "Irish mandolin" courses that I have attended have been given by banjo players, some of whom did not play the mandolin. The banjo has special qualities that are not shared by mandolins, and vice versa. <rant on> It is time to throw down the shackles of the banjo and to fly on our own! <rant off>

I am not saying that there is no style, just that it is hidden way back in a corner and needs to come out. This group may be the one to do it via sharing of ideas/mp3s/critiques and supporting each other the way the bluegrass mandolinists seem to do.


Mel Bay Banjosessions

[jmcgann]

Actually, within "Irish mandolin playing" there are already a wealth of different approaches, which is a great sign.

The King and Queen of Irish Trad are the fiddle and pipes, though flute players may disagree I think it is REALLY important for mandolinists to not become "inbred" by copying each other, but to keep an open mind and keep an ear out toward (i.e. seriously study) all the deep traditions on those "other" primary instruments. I've based my own playing very much on trying to emulate what I hear the fiddlers do (and to a lesser extent pipes, accordion, flute etc.).

We'll never be heard much in a session, but in a concert hall with microphones, and a good sound person, and in the recording studio, all becomes equal!

Also, it is interesting that many of the great trad recordings were indeed made in the USA, many by native born Irish players, but some by Yanks like my pal, the accordion wizard Joe Derrane...recordings that were very influential in Ireland.

Mike, thanks for your kind comments!

[Bob DeVellis]

Style is tricky. I guess I think of style as residing in the music rather than the instrument. If you accept this premise (and many won't), then the issue for the instrument becomes how to capture the musical style, given the nature of the tool. There are many reasonable ways of tracing the evolution of melodic expression in Irish music and I'll offer one, recognizing that I'd have a very hard time claiming that it's the only version or the most correct one. But with that acknowledged, here goes:

I guess I think of the "style" as having arisen in sean nos singing, using the original "instrument," the human voice. The elaborate melismatic ornamentation is, I think, a hallmark of the Irish style. Pipers came along and captured aspects of that style through the use of a series of devices (crans, rolls, etc.) that suited their instrument and captured the gist of the vocal renditions. Fiddlers, did likewise, with the additional influence of the pipes. Many fiddle ornaments resemble pipe ornaments, and that's no accident. Whistles, flutes, concertinas, etc. were all arguably doing their versions of the same inherent style, adapting as the demands of their particular instrument's limitations dictated. Banjo, unlike the fiddles and wind instruments has little sustain, so rather than drawing out a note through melismatic embellishment, sustaining the note through the use of triplets seemed to be the way to go. Thus, triplets became a distinct element of Irish banjo. By the time banjos came on the scene (at least by the time they became popular in their current guise), rhythm had become more structured than it was with the free-flowing sean nos and early uillan pipe styles. So, an additional contribution a banjoist could make was to help establish a solid rhythm. This turned what might have been inherent limitations (a sharp tone with little sustain) into an asset. So, the banjo captured some of the established elements of Irish melodic style and added a percussiveness that few other instruments could match -- something old and something new. In both cases, the feel of the "Irish style" was accommodated to the strengths and weaknesses of the instrument, just as it had been with other, earlier instruments that found their way into the music.

So, with mandolin, what works and what doesn't? A mandolin can do some banjo stuff and some fiddle stuff, but only some. The sustain of the fiddle isn't there nor is the percussion and volume of the banjo. But many of the "classic" melodic ornamentations that make music sound Irish are readily available on the mandolin. One thing a mandolin can do better than a fiddle, pipes, or perhaps banjo, is play chords. Problem is, chords haven't been warmly embraced by Irish traditional music (probably because the earliest, most quintessentially Irish instruments couldn't produce them very effectively). So, if one wants to play Irish music, there may not be any obvious reason to gravitate first to the mandolin. Sure, it can get the job done, but there are other instrumental options that can also work. Why the mandolin?

As Mike suggested, most mandolins used in Irish music are in the hands of either (a) multi-instrumentalists who play Irish music and have decided to see how it works on mandolin, or (b) mandolinists who play in multiple genres and have decided to see how it would work for Irish music. I think I regard the first group as having a more distinctly "Irish style," not surprisingly. Mick Moloney's playing sounds very Irish to me and I find that whether he's playing banjo or mandolin doesn't seem to matter that much with respect to the feel of the music. When I pull tunes from his No Strings CD to play on mandolin, I find myself more often pulling banjo tunes than mandolin tunes. He tends to favor a more courtly repertoire for mandolin whereas I like to play dance tunes. The other group (mandolinists who've decided to explore Irish) often mix their primary musical type in with the Irish pretty heavily. The strongest case is the Steve Kaufman Celtic Workout series. Although I'd be thrilled to have a fraction of his musical abilities, that music has never sounded convincingly Irish to me. It sounds like a bluegrass player giving Irish a go. Likewise (ducking for cover now), Simon Mayor, who is a brilliant musician, doesn't sound convincingly Irish to me. Bluegrassers bring a rhythm and harmony to their playing of Irish that, to me, diminishes its Irishness. Mayor's playing has a classical sound that I don't associate with Irish dance music, although it's great music in its own right.

So, we have one group of musicians who use mandolin but really don't seem to be cultivating any particularly "mandolinistic" interpretations of the Irish repertoire, and another group who may be adding some new twists (a more articulated rhythm and use of harmony) that the Irish traditional community is slow to embrace. (As an aside, my less-than-astute perception of Scottish and Cape Breton music is that a sharper rhythmic articulation is an element of both and that harmony is well accepted at least in the latter. That may be why more of the "Celtic" mandolinists around seem to be from Scotland and the maritimes than Ireland.) Result: No new input to Irish music attributable to the mandolin. The mandolin hasn't left a distinctive stamp on the music as have other instruments.

Personally, I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing. Some players (Michael Kerry comes to mind) seem to be able to "keep it Irish" while using the mandolin as their mode of expression. Others (OM and 'zouk players come to mind) have broadened the use of subtle harmony in a way that doesn't alter the Irishness but does bring something different (if not essentially mandolinistic) to the music. True, the former may not be breaking new ground and the latter may have done its ground-breaking with something other than the standard-sized mandolin, but the music we have as a result is very nice.

Irish traditional music is inherently consevative. Bringing something new to a genre (like "mandolin essence") is inherently progressive. The two are not mutually reinforcing. But they don't totally cancel each other out, either. I find that there is a certain type of pull-off that Irish mandolinists (or rather, mandolinists playing Irish music) use that may evolve into a distinctively mandolinistic yet traditional form of ornamentation. It sounds different on a mandolin than it does on a fiddle, whistle, or pipe. Simon Mayor actually does this sort of thing alot and I wonder if other, more traditionally-oriented players may have borrowed the technique from him but use it in a different way. I have a CD by a young Prince Edward's Islander named Elmer Deagle and he uses this type of pull-off to good effect on some cuts. His stuff ranges form more traditional Irish-sounding stuff to full-bore, piano-accompanied, Canadian Celtic to pop acoustic. But in places, the music is convincingly Irish and, to my ear, distictively mandolin-based. So, there may be some younger players out there that are laying the seeds of an "Irish mandolin" style.

I've gone on way to long, so I'll stop. Thanks for your patience.

[zoukboy]

Speaking from my own experience it is very easy for the mando to get lost in sessions. I think that many people who might otherwise want to play it opt for the louder tenor banjo, which also has the advantage of sounding an octave lower. I have even come to prefer (sacrilege!) playing TB in sessions over the mandolin because people can hear me. Fiddlers especially seem to be more able to discern the TB from the mando and I can only wonder if it is the difference in range.

I lead a small session here in Taos with several novice players who really need to hear me. I started the session on mando and it was a struggle to get them to hear me. I switched to banjo and it works much better now.

Part of the Irish trad aesthetic seems to be what works in sessions. If an instrument seems too soft (or too loud) it doesn't catch on, doesn't gather a constituency of players whose efforts would come to be identified as "the Irish mandolin style."

[Dagger Gordon]

Roger,

Regarding the difference in range between banjo and mandolin: I certainly find the banjo is more effective than a mando in a bar session, but I find the mandolin to be better than a CBOM (at least for melody playing).

Some interesting comments from everybody.

[zoukboy]

Roger,

Regarding the difference in range between banjo and mandolin: I certainly find the banjo is more effective than a mando in a bar session, but I find the mandolin to be better than a CBOM (at least for melody playing).

Yeah, I hear ya. I first gained proficiency playing tunes on mandolin before transfering a lot of what I learned to the bouzouki, and then going from there, acquiring other, zouk-specific techniques that I feel even better suit Irish trad music.

As far as whether a mando or a CBOM is better in a session, I think it depends on the instrument. The zouk I've been playing the last few years is louder than any mando I've heard in a session.

[EdSherry]

In my experience, there are very few "role models" for "Irish mandolin." #Mick Moloney is (IMHO) still "the man." #Marla Fibish just taught a (very good) class in Irish Mando at the Lark in the Morning music camp. #

But a lot of "Irish" mando playing is (as others have said) applying tenor banjo technique to the mando, which is a bit problematic given the physical differences between the two (scale length, double-course vs. single string, preferred pick -- most TB players I know use a very light pick to make the triplets easier to play, which I find doesn't work well on mando). #

And, of course, TBs are loud puppies that cut through a session better than most mandos (especially the Gibson round-hole A-styles that are the preferred "weapon of choice" among most of the Irish mando players I know).

But I (generally!) prefer not to go over to THE DARK SIDE and play TB. #I much prefer the sound of mando in Irish music. #(Silly me.) #At sessions, it helps that I have a pretty loud mando (one of the first Flatiron F-5s, with a nice "woody" tone) and I'm not afraid to play hard.

I agree that the aesthetic in Irish music is for "lead" instruments not to play rhythm, but I sometimes use two-note dyads on my lower strings as backup/rhythm. #I haven't run across a lot of others who do it, but it seems to work OK.

[Dagger Gordon]

John makes a good point when he differentiates between sessions and stage and recordings.

Sessions are fun for what they are, but they aren't everything. It's worth remembering that other significant Irish instruments like the harp aren't best heard at a session either, but the harp is still one of the main instruments I think of in Irish music.

It's a question of using it when you can. If a session is too noisy, then by all means play banjo, rhythm mandolin etc just to join in and have some fun.

[danb]

I like your "stuff", just like I like Mick Moloney's, Roger Landes', and Simon Mayor's stuff. My question as to whether an established style (or even an evolving style, which is more likely) is hampered by a lack of enough role models.
(...)
To that extent we have the Milwaukee/London style (Dan B.), the Philadelphia style, the New Mexico Style, etc.

heh, well before you go naming us for our cities too quickly, I should point out that I had a lesson with Mick back in the early 90s, and Roger & I are good friends who have played together often over the years and influenced each other. I think it'd be pretty big-headed of me to claim to have a Milwaukee-London style, I just have "the Beimborn muddle" which includes learning tunes and tricks from Roger, playing with Kevin now & again, some new stuff I've evolved from other instruments or invented while hunched over a mandolin, etc.

But you know, this is probably where our two points merge. This is a very interesting point- basically that I think once you really start investigating there is much less consistency than you think. This music is an oral (or aural, more appropriately) culture, which has variations but common themes. Just like storytelling, fables, etc.. no one person can claim ownership of it, and to prove your point.. there are only really vague styles. I can teach some of Roger & Mick's tricks, but they can teach them best, and vice versa.

Amd as far as this "you can't hear the mandolin" stuff, c'mon guys, try an F5.. for me... Sometimes people complain they can't hear the accordian when I play an F5 at an Irish session

[danb]

The banjo may be the culprit. Most of the "Irish mandolin" courses that I have attended have been given by banjo players, some of whom did not play the mandolin. The banjo has special qualities that are not shared by mandolins, and vice versa. <rant on> It is time to throw down the shackles of the banjo and to fly on our own! <rant off>

hah, I get you alright. A lot of banjo players whip the poor little things to death with super-heavy pickstrokes, no dynamics, and too many triplets picked right on top of the bridge. I swear you can see sparks fly sometimes. They can make a mandolin sound like a shrill angry little banjo, a chiuaua instead of a labrador

Keep an eye peeled- Roger's zoukfest always has a great mandolin undercurrent, and I've occasionally snuck in a mando class in at festivals. Tim O'Brien teaches some very nice Irish stuff too I'm told, as do many fine players.

I think the main thing the banjo players who dabble with mandolin miss out on are dynamics (playing softly sometimes har), chords/double stops, some of the more delicate pull-off ornamentation styles (which work on banjo, but picked triplets are soooo temptingly easy once mastered), the occasional chop chord thrown in to make someone jump, and some of the bluegrass/american influences like alternate tunings, syncopation, cross-picking, etc.

[Avi Ziv]

Speaking from my own experience it is very easy for the mando to get lost in sessions.........
.......Part of the Irish trad aesthetic seems to be what works in sessions. If an instrument seems too soft (or too loud) it doesn't catch on, doesn't gather a constituency of players whose efforts would come to be identified as "the Irish mandolin style."

I agree with Roger. Although my experience is much more limited, it's been fairly consistent in several sessions over the past few years. For all mandolin players that I know, this is a problem. Maybe the sessions are too large. Maybe they are too loud. Maybe the acoustics are bad. Still the fact remains the same. The sound gets mostly lost. I envy Dan's volume and the respect he apparently gets from other musicians at his sessions but I dare say that his is experience is not the norm.

Apart from the volume there is the related issue of tone. Even if we can be heard - the tone is more like shouting than singing, if you know what I mean. Maybe people get used to it and it may even become a new standard for Irish mandolin tone but it's not always pleasing. This is what happened to Cajun singing. Without amplification, the singers had to yell to he heard and now it's a style even with microphones. To my ears, the sound of a properly amplified mandolin (like major bands use in performance) is a lot more pleasing and balanced than mandolins in sessions. They don't have to shout.

I love mandolins, play mine every day, and it's still my main session instrument. I did not come from a banjo background, but lately I started experimenting with the TB and I can see playing more of it at our sessions.

The mandolin is not the only instrument that is drowned in the session. If a guitar player wants to play the tune (not backup) can he/she be heard? I doubt it. Same for a harp player and how about the low D whistle?

Wouldn't it be nice if the sessions developed the same respect towards (and interest in) the mandolin as they do with singing? Why not stop once in a while, sit back and listen to a mandolin tune, as we do with the occasional song? I know - singing is at the core of Irish music and mandolin is not. I have to say, though, that the song breaks are a good place to show how nice a mandolin can sound, and I do it by providing some drones and counter melody figures around the singer. It can work well and people appreciate it.

Sometimes I think of mandolins as closer to finger-picking guitar players - more of a solo performance, with very small group. Once in a while, when only 3-4 people show up at the session, I feel like my mandolin is contributing nicely to the overall sound. I know, I know - people always tell me that I'm heard more than I think. Still....you know...

Avi

[Rick C.]

Get a National. They'll hear you.



Rick

[danb]

there's a certain sort of F5 (my ex lebeda was a good example) that will out-cannon a national. There is a pretty big reluctance to play F5s in the Irish world. They are a lot more expensive (for good ones) which I think is a big part of it. Trad music wasn't music of the wealthy, so it's evolved into part of the vibe almost to have a threadbare instrument. But seriously, you can be heard on an F5 in a jam without even having to thrash the poor thing too hard

[Roger Mace]

IMHO typical Irish session music stems from the pipes, accordion, whistles, fiddles, flutes and instruments that can make continuous tone (not plucked. The continuous tone from bags, bows, bellows and blowing can facilitate and are essentinal for the rolls, crans, cuts, etc. that make the music sound typical "Irish" in nature - regardless of regional style. Triplets and grace notes are about the only ornaments that comes close on mando and triplets can't even be done on pipes :-(

The guitar family - if you will - seems best used as a back up and harmony instrument - even if you can hear the triplets (not counting solos - just sessions). And when they try to flatpick or use rock/OT chords - they ususally quickly find the exit door....

[EdSherry]

At one session I play in Berkeley, there was a fellow who used to flatpick melodies on an old National Tricone guitar. He could make himself heard.

But I agree with other comments that many (not all) mandos get "drowned out" at sessions, which discourages mando players from playing them at sessions (and encourages people to take up TB instead so they can hear themselves).

I fully agree with the suggestion to get a mando with adequate volume if you're going to play sessions. It need not be an F-5; I have a couple of nice A-5 style instruments that work very well.

As for getting people to quiet down so that one can hear the mando, at one of the sessions I go to I end up leading waltzes and airs on my mando -- a nice change from a relentless string of jigs and reels.

[jmcgann]

One sad (?) fact is that in the Irish tradition, the fiddle never does anything but play melody- there is NO concept of "accompaniment" or "backup"...indeed, with few exceptions, no harmonic concept whatsoever, and in fact, among the real hardcore, chords are barely tolerated!

Now that younger players are getting exposed to the incredible world of rhythm and grooves that fiddlers like Darol Anger can play, perhaps down the line we'll see a time where guitarists and mandolinists who play melody will be give space to do so rather that The Evil Eye.

At present, the Melody Players* shall remain Gods and Be Unyielding of the Limelight. If you are lucky YMMV

* Thee Fydlle, Pipes, and Flute. Thee Accordion Also Recieveth Second-Class status unless Deade (Cooley) or Offically Sanctioned Pedigree of Trad Certificate Bearinge. Thee Self-Appointed Bearers of The Pure Drop shall Notte Tolerate Hybrid! ( hey, I'm just as bad- my worst nightmare is to sound like a bluegrass player 'moonlighting' in Irish music!!!)

[Rick C.]

Dang,

Not only do I have to learn the tunes but now I gotta decode Chaucer...

"Deade" accordion players, LMAO!

[mikeyes]

I think it is important to keep up this dialogue on the state of the Irish mandolin. #For one thing, the contributers are often a who's who of musicians in the field and a lot of ideas can ber batted around and developed. #In addition, we can learn where the venues are for learning face to face (e.g. Zoukfest and later on maybe one of the big mandolin festivals)so we can exchange ideas and hear what is new and interesting; #Why let the BG players have all the fun (of course most of us started out that way.)

It is rare that you get an "inside-out" view of an evolutionary process llike the Irish mandolin. #(I could give you the inside dope on the Irish nose flute. #I seem to be the only serious practitioner. #but I can't do much with it as in sessions people laugh, for a second, and they they tell me to stop because they are disgusted. #What is a musician to do?)

I use an F-5 in session too, mostly because of its volume and the fact that it is the best mandolin I have. #It sounds OK but I end up with the TB half the time. #On stage, however, it is magic sometimes because it is much more versatile than the TB and can be used like a bouzouki for chordal and counterpoint, like a banjo for some percussive tones, and like a mandolin for a unique sound. #I don't use triplets all that much but do use double stops, slides, pull-offs, etc. #Of course, the mandolin is my first instrument and I have played it for 30 years. #My TB playing is really a sub-set of my mandolin playing with some triplets thrown in. #IF you watch John Carty play (you can see videos at Banjosessions if you search the archives and look at the tenor banjo articles. #He uses a lot of mandolin type licks that are tasteful and different from the GO'C style. #Of course, he is a fiddler and a flutist also.)

Exchanging ideas, videos/mp3s, and meeting periodically will help the effort a lot. #Just like the BG players!

[jmcgann]

John Carty! What a fabulous musician (on so many instruments too!)

[mikeyes]

John Carty (his initials are JC, think about it) does not play the mandolin because of an accident that cut off the very tips of some fingers on his left hand. He can play the fiddle and the banjo with little trouble and he incorporates all sorts of neat stuff in his playing. Here is a video of John Carty playing a tune. Just page down until you see it.

Mel Bay Banjosessions

[danb]

One sad (?) fact is that in the Irish tradition, the fiddle never does anything but play melody- there is NO concept of "accompaniment" or "backup"...indeed, with few exceptions, no harmonic concept whatsoever, and in fact, among the real hardcore, chords are barely tolerated!

To me, the hardcore are barely tolerable

A separate can of worms to the current, but the attitute of what is and isn't hardcore or proper in a session goes against fun and joy with such vigor that it has been chased out of Irish sessions all the way over to America!

[danb]

Hey Mike,

If you don't mind the drive down to Milwaukee, I'm over to visit family fairly often and we can hook up some time. I'm sure you already know to make it down for Milwaukee Irish fest. If you attend the summer school (or just show up for the sessions) you'll find there are more than just a handfull of players.

I'd also add Dervish to the list. Mandola & Bouzouki mainly, but seamus plays a mandolin in the sessions after the gigs usually!

[Dagger Gordon]

I can't deny that Celtic usually means Irish to many people, but I have to point out that Scottish music is not the same as Irish, although it can certainly be similar.
It was interesting that in the (apparently) ill-fated 'Glass Slipper' Irish mandolin project by Aidan crossey, there were more contributors from Scotland than Ireland itself (and several from the US).

A second point is that the approach to the instrument itself is possibly different in Scotland than Ireland. Dan made a comment in some thread (can't remember where) that he thought most Irish mandolinists were primarily banjo players (correct me if I'm wrong Dan) to which Kevin and myself pointed out that we identified ourselves as mandolin players who also played banjo.

I suspect that is also true of Ian MacLeod, Gary Peterson and others. #

Perhaps a small observation, but I think quite a telling one.