What is Irish Mandolin?

[jmcgann]

I just say "to hell with the begrudgers" and enjoy myself in spite of them.

I was complaining about some very negative reviews I recieved over "The Boston Edge" CD, and Seamus Connolly gave me the same advice about the begrudgers, although he used a different four letter word

Michael Coleman had begrudgers, as did Joe Derrane, Johnny Doran, Seamus and anyone who ever played anything in any tradition that was a challenge to players of lesser abilities, or simply too 'personalized'. The self-appointed keepers of the flame are rarely the best players, so the hell with 'em anyway.

[Paul Hostetter]

All my life my Scottish relatives used the term "pure drop" in reference to single malt whisky, usually in admiration. I think the term, like the mandolin, must be a somewhat recent adoptee of the Iroid music world. Even if Thomas Hardy had a Dorset pub called Pure Drop Inn in his 1891 book Tess of the D'Urbervilles.

[mikeyes]

This "pure drop" discussion is present in all sorts of traditional music, the preservationists versus the progressives. Maybe not so delineated as most practicioners of a genera are a little of both but aften are stuck with a group-think opinion due to peer pressure. The discussion often gets very nasty, but this is because people are nasty, not necessarily due to content or persuasion. There are plenty of reasons to stay inventive within the parameters of the tradition as you know it and not to succumb to outside influences and plenty of reason to borrow. If you look at the old records of (primarily American made http://juneberry78s.com/sounds/ListenToIrishDance.htm) Irish dance music you will hear a lot of outside influences - but you can hear pipers who don't show that influence too. But if you compare the way they play a lot of the music then with how it is played nowadays by traditional musicians, there are obvious differences in pace, technique, and sometimes the tunes themselves. No music is static.

Just so I won't ruffle too many ITM feathers, let's examine bluegrass. BG is by no means a traditional music. It is exactly 60 years old this year and there is nearly 100% documentation of it's growth and origins. Yet this same pseudo-argument has arisen in spades with formal organizations, festivals, and recording companies on both sides. One familiar point is the composition of a bluegrass band: Acceptable instruments are five string banjo played with Scruggs style, mandolin, guitar, bass, fiddle, and sometimes dobro. If you tried to introduce electric guitar, string sections, new age bird sounds, drums, accordion, tenor banjo, harmonica (maybe), or the harmonium you would be drummed out of the corps. Of course, those are the other instruments used by Bill Monroe at some time or another (including one of his last hits before he died), but the total preservationists will not hear of that. There is one organization that bans the use of an electric bass on stage for the same reason even though the main reason for such is convenience of travel.

There is no justification for such shenanigans unless your idea of preserving the flame is to smother it. No tradition is not influenced by other good musics. The ironic thing is that BG is a synthesis of mountain, dance, blues (one of the most important influences was a bluesman named Arnold Schultz, who was not German), and shape note singing. R&B shares the same types of root of church and blues.

What happens is that some people become fanatics and the session nazi arises. I have been in a few of those sessions and they have all been very uncomfortable. Again, this is not to say that there isn't a legitimate discussion about the direction of the tradition (any of them) but what the practical answer is that there is not one direction only, but a lot of directions that end up influencing each other. The distillation to "it is what I say it is" is a false one in all traditions, unless you are a band leader with very strong ideas and then it works because you are trying to make music instead of some political point.

The Irishfest is upon us and you cannot find a more diverse presentation of ideas about Irish/Celtic (Cape Breton is the focus on the Roots stage this year) music. I try to go in with an open mind but always gravitate to the Gaeltacht area and listen to the Irish language, the pipes, and the old timers play their music. As do a lot of the progressive band members when they are finished playing on stage. That should tell you something.

Here is another question: who does define traditional music? Some obscure private or governmental body hidden away in a small town? The audience who show up at shows and festivals and by the records? The record companies, stores and festival owners? Or the musicians?

Before we jump to the obvious conclusion (the musicians) remember that musicians are a special group and for the most part cannot live without the others mentioned. Even early on the musicians were in a special place (high or low depending) and were so honored in a village because they facilitated an important cultural item, dance or entertainmemt. Virtually all the records we have are commercial products and the field recordings were usually of prominent musicians who had to have either a dance or an audience to be prominent. (Commercial doesn't always mean you were paid cash, pigs and goats, or a special place in society were also fair compensation.)

I think that the issue of defining the music is much more complex.


Mel Bay Banjosessions

[jmcgann]

I think that the issue of defining the music is much more complex.

Amen. Reducing the music to an idea to "purity" does a disservice to the music. You can always find a traditional contradiction to whatever concept is supposed to be "pure" anyhow!

If you are closely involved in ANY style of music, you develop a sense of what makes the style tick, and what sort of things lie outside of general useage.

[Bob DeVellis]

No question, styles drift from their origins, usually for the better. But sometimes that drift coalesces around a distinctive form. In bluegrass, for example, the three-finger banjo style is an example. I don't think anything like that has happened with the mandolin in Irish music. I'm not sure that this is a bad thing.

As others have said, the session may not be the ideal place for the mandolin for a variety of reasons (e.g., volume, pitch redundancy with other instruments, etc). But, as has also been noted, it's not ideal for harp, either, and that certainly doesn't make the harp unsuitable for Irish music. Perhaps the Irish mandolin style that should be cultivated is a "parlor style." Personally, I prefer listening to Irish music on mandolin in a context that supports the instrument's sweet tone and seemingly limitless ornamental possibilities. That usually means less loud, less uniform, and less fast music than the typical session encourages. I'm, so far, incapable of playing mandolin at the speeds often encountered in sessions. But (and I guess this might be sour grapes to some degree) I'm not strongly motivated to do that, either. I enjoy listening to session music but it's the sound found on recordings of Irish mandolin music played solo or in very small groups that I really wish I could achieve and that I most enjoy. I wonder if the strong linkage between session music and Irish music is part of what's inhibiting the emergence of a recognizable Irish mandolin style.

[danb]

The only thing inhibiting a standard style is the fact that the instrument is so flexible. You couldn't point to a standard fiddle style.. there are too many dialects and virtuosos to divide it down. The same is true of the mandolin- they have the breadth and variety of any other instrument you could think of. The instrument is too darned flexible to reduce it to a single mono-culture

[mikeyes]

My vision of "Irish Mandolin" is not so much a codified style as a consensus of how much the mandolin can do and still stay within some boundaries that can be (if vaguely) in the family of Irish music. This includes some of the Scottish styles and some of the American styles incorporated into the music since there will be a place for new ideas that are mandolin-centric due to the instrument's peculiarities. Just within this group there are a lot of very good ideas on how to play the music and we can and will influence each other. The problem is access and a dearth of examples right now. I think that can be rectified.

As we explore the instrument, there will be a lot of surprises. Fewer plucked triplets and more techique triplets, for example. All the usual stuff we see from other types of music and maybe a brand new presentation for those non-Irish players too. I already know that when I play an Irish tune for my BG friends, they are very interested because they see the potential for new ideas. My BG playing has improved considerably since I started playing Irish music mostly out of improving my discipline, timing, and reading notation instead of tab. I have had to learn to develop variations in a more subtle manner. It's not just playing the notes, it is a matter of developing style.

Style is important. If you don't have a style, you are not totally immersed in the music. Style means that you have mastered (some, at least) the technical aspects of the instrument, are precise and accurate and have enough consitency that you can play what is in your head. At that point you are able to create or copy, whatever is important to you at the time. Players with style are unique even if they epitomise the style. Play the same fiddle tune by Martin Hayes, James Kelly, and Kevin Burke and you can tell who is who but if asked will say, "yes, that is Irish music" even though they are totally different in many respects.

As a musician, that is one of your goals, to be recognized due to your style. Of course your style may be awful but it is your style and it can evolve as time goes on. Playing Irish music means thinking "Irish" as you play in your style, not playing a specific way.

A lot of aspiring mandolinists will want to hear master musicians play and will try to emulate them. That is the way most people start out, but in Irish music there are not a lot of role models yet. This should change as time goes on.

Mel Bay Banjosessions

[Steve L]

In some ways, I'm really glad we don't have someone like Bill Monroe casting a huge shadow over the way the instrument is played in this music. #There are people to listen to, learn from, and admire, but we all have to come to terms with the instument in the music our own way.

I'm starting to hear more and more John Doyle wannabes on guitar (Who is unquestionably a great player.)and that also makes me kind of glad there isn't a "Celtic" Thile.

This is one of the best threads I've read in a long time...thanks to all who have made it so!

[jmcgann]

A lot of aspiring mandolinists will want to hear master musicians play and will try to emulate them. That is the way most people start out, but in Irish music there are not a lot of role models yet.

There are vast numbers of role models, they just aren't mandolinists...

[mikeyes]

"There are vast numbers of role models, they just aren't mandolinists..."

John, that's true, but the banjo players want to hear the banjo, fiddle players want to hear fiddlers, etc. just to get an idea of what can be done. A master level musician can take ideas from anyone, but novice and late beginners need a little more inspiration from someone they recognize. That's why they look to you and others on this list. Steve's point about becoming worshippers is valid too, but there are middle grounds. Besides seeing a good mandolin player play the music means that it can be done. You may need years of practice and outrageous talent, but it can be done and that frees up a lot of musicians psychologically to try things on their own. The advantage of seeing someone else palying your chosen instrument is not that you copy them, but that you are able to specifically hear the instrument played.


Mel Bay Banjosessions

[zoukboy]

The self-appointed keepers of the flame are rarely the best players, so the hell with 'em anyway.

Amen, John.

For me the important word here is "self-appointed." Anyone who makes begrudging remarks about specific players in a public forum [we know who we're talking about, don't we ;-) ] should be publicly shunned.

[Bren]

I think it's great that there's no accepted "authentic" way of playing Irish, or Scottish or Shetland etc, tunes on the mandolin.
I listen to Dan, Dagger and Kevin's, and Gary Peterson's recordings for pleasure and never really think of trying to play like that (even if it were possible! well, I suppose I do think about it but something else comes out when I play ..), since I play along normally with fiddlers, whistlers and accordions and learn my tunes from them.
Andy Irvine would've been the first Irish mandolinist I really listened to, but his style is so personal and individual it would seem strange to copy it. Mind you, Bill Monroe's playing strikes me that way too, and they built a whole genre around copying him ....

[Dagger Gordon]

If I may be the devil's advocate for a while, it would be wrong to assume that absolutely anything is appropriate at a session.
I have been to sessions where people make little effort to tune in to the essential vibe of the place and and who have spoilt it. Equally I have seen players sit in, spend some time assessing what kind of stuff the session is about and then make a contribution of their own which lifted everybody.
If you join in a session, I think you do need to show some awareness.
Secondly, at the risk of being a session nazi, there are some things I just don't like to hear. For example, someone playing a 6/8 march like a jig.
But you've always got to encourage people and not to put them off.

[Bertram Henze]

But you've always got to encourage people and not to put them off.

Yeah, that's the way to go.
In a regular session I attend, there is one singer who always bawls one or two unknown, blues-like, emphatic songs making everybody twist their eyes, but I say behind every singer there's a lonely soul that wants to be loved, so let him do it and not hurt him, because you never know what others think about what you do.
And I am quite successful in playing lesser known non-traditional tunes on my OM, partly because the others get interested ("what's that called?" "Peter Barnes and Indian Summer" - thanks to Dan btw., or even "Loaves and Fishes"), partly because it prevents the others from picking up the tune with ridiculously high speed the OM can't follow (oh those fiddlers...), but with any luck one or two guitars will pick up the chords and I am not lonely, even get applause, although I check out of that highspeed would-be-traditional tourist-attraction steam-engine jukebox.
Phew, someone will flame me for this, but you don't care so much when you're getting older...

Bertram

[Paul Hostetter]

Garsh, speaking of singing, one of the things I have noticed about real Irish sessions (inhabitated predominantly by Irish persons, not Americans who imagine or wish they were) is that when it comes to singing a song, there are no boundaries. "Ah Peter, now give us a song," and Peter launches into something by Tom Waits or Bob Marley. Initially it puzzled me, but I got over it. Some things in real Irish sessions are evidently not always supposed to flow from the 18th century or meet approval by the Music Police. Leaving certain folks in the dust with repertoire or speed choices is another issue, of course.

[mandocrucian]

Garsh, speaking of singing, one of the things I have noticed about real Irish sessions (inhabitated predominantly by Irish persons, not Americans who imagine or wish they were) is that when it comes to singing a song, there are no boundaries. "Ah Peter, now give us a song," and Peter launches into something by Tom Waits or Bob Marley. Initially it puzzled me, but I got over it. Some things in real Irish sessions are evidently not always supposed to flow from the 18th century or meet approval by the Music Police.

When you really are Irish, there's no need to continually prove that you are. #I've seen the same phenomenna with folks that have taken up Cajun music (and other ethnic music). #Trying so hard to prove they are worthy of being awarded a "honorary Cajun merit badge" when there are real Cajuns in the jam, and too often becoming the style gestapo when it's all non-Cajuns.

I guess it is the same as new religious convert zealotry .......new genre convert zealotry

Ties into the thread about "authenticity" #(such a thing as too much diversity?, can jack-of-all be master of any?). #I hate that concept/conceit. #You're only authentic if you grew up in that tradition. I don't care about being "authentic" because it ain't gonna happen - sounding "convincing" is a more realistic goal/aspiration.

Actually, I started out playing UK/Irish stuff 35 years ago, inspired by Fairport Convention, Steeleye Span, Pentangle, etc. #and was ordering LPs (Chieftains, Planxty, High Level Ranters, Boys of The Lough, Carthy/Swarbrick, #etc. etc) from the UK long before any of this stuff was ever available on US labels. When I (also) started playing BG a few years later, the grassers (even the progressives) would roll their eyes at any tune (say "Wind That Shakes The Barley", "Paddy Ryan's Dream") other than "Red Haired Boy" (Tony Rice's version) as if it was a novelty song (at best).... and don't even think about trying to get them to attempt a jig or slip jig. #And now, it's so "in".

But now there's old-time or grassers who only got the Irish bug 5 or 6 years back who now act like they are the experts and will tell you what is or what isn't appropriate to play. Their listening may go all the way back to Altan! You mention Martin Byrnes, Billy Pigg, and you can tell by the expression or comeback that they have no idea who you're talking about (although they'll often pretend like they're familiar with all of it.) #

My vision of "Irish Mandolin" is not so much a codified style as a consensus of how much the mandolin can do and still stay within some boundaries that can be (if vaguely) in the family of Irish music. #

Sorry, but having (American) bluegrassers defining the parameters of what is and isn't "Irish mandolin" seems like a steering committee meeting of The Judean People's Front (or was the The People's Front of Judea?) <span style='font-size:8pt;line-height:100%'>(Monty Python Life of Brian reference)</span> #If anyone is gonna do that, it ought to be the Irish players - cause it's their music.

NH

[zoukboy]

Sorry, but having (American) bluegrassers defining the parameters of what is and isn't "Irish mandolin" seems like a steering committee meeting of The Judean People's Front (or was the The People's Front of Judea?) <span style='font-size:8pt;line-height:100%'>(Monty Python Life of Brian reference)</span> If anyone is gonna do that, it ought to be the Irish players - cause it's their music.

NH

Niles,

The Monty Python reference is funny, but I think it's worth noting that not all of us in this discussion are "bluegrassers".

Re: it being "their" music - I agree. In a previous post I mentioned that the mandolin does not seem to have gathered "a constituency of players whose efforts would come to be identified as 'the Irish mandolin style'." While I wouldn't rule out the possibility of US-based (as opposed to Irish born immigrants to the States) Irish specialists having some affect on Irish mandolin playing in Ireland, it certainly isn't the norm. Some US-based fiddlers, fluters and box players (and yes, even banjo players) have had some influence but I have yet to notice any by (US-based) mando or bouzouki players.

[Steve L]

I came to this music in the 70's like many of the players I know and still have a stack of vinyl the size of the Acropolis in my living room that is the bane of my wife's existence. #When I decided to play this music exclusively, I felt I had so much baggage as a guitar player across a number of idioms that it was really getting in my way. #When I read Breandan Breathnach's advice that if you come to this music later in life, it's best to do so on an instrument upon which you've received no previous instruction, I chose to play the mandolin. #I've learned to love it, but at the time it was a pragmatic means to an end and it really worked for me. #I've never had the slightest interest in bluegrass.

It seems no stranger to me that Americans would play Irish music than Rory Gallagher or Clapton would play the blues.
And no matter what I feel or do, some people will like my playing, some will think it's garbage, and most of the inhabitants of the planet will remain spectacularly uninterested. #I will not sound like an native born Irishman any more than Mr. Gallagher or Mr. Clapton sound as if they crawled out of the mud of the Delta. But let's not pretend that there are no lame players in Erin. #Ezra Pound wrote in one of his Cantos "What thou love best is thy true heritage" and that's as close as I'll get and as close as I need to be.

By the way, the great piper Billy Pigg wasn't Irish...he was Northumbrian.

[Dagger Gordon]

I noted the reference to Billy Pigg myself, Steve, and was a bit surprised.

Having said that, the music of the North East of England is distinct from the rest of country, and often overlooked. Musicians like the wonderful Northumbrian pipes and fiddle player Katherine Tickell are essential listening.

There is also a strong Irish community, mainly in Newcastle, with some top players, and let's not forget the great instrument maker Stefan Sobell himself, who lives near Hexham.

[Paul Kotapish]

By the way, the great piper Billy Pigg wasn't Irish...he was Northumbrian.

And speaking of digressions . . . there are many great "Irish" musicians who are--strictly speaking--not Irish.

Fiddler Kevin Burke and mandolinist Andy Irvine are both English, for example. Of Irish parents (or Irish and Scottish, in Andy's case), of course, but Kevin and Andy were born and bred in London.

Seamus Egan, Liz Carroll, John Williams, and any number of All-Ireland Champions all hail from the U.S.

All of them, however, grew up in the tradition, no matter how far afield from the old sod.

[mandocrucian]

By the way, the great piper Billy Pigg wasn't Irish...he was Northumbrian.

Yeah I know. That shows you've listened to the guy! #But anyone that pretensions of being the style-gestapo (Irish or Celtic) ought to have listened to enough stuff including Scottish, Shetland, Northumbrian,.....

not all of us in this discussion are "bluegrassers".

You're right.

Actually to be technically correct, there probably aren't any truebluegrassers involved - cause a bona fide one would never cheat on the grass with another genre!

Re: Irvine, Egan etc. Geography isn't the total definer; as I said - "You're only authentic if you grew up in that tradition." #And I think they all fit that quite well.

NH

<span style='font-size:8pt;line-height:100%'>"What's taking that asteroid so long?!"</span>

[Steve L]

Dagger, a few years back Pauline Cato and Tom McConville played a concert here in my town of Arlington, Ma. Northumbrian music is really under-appreciated! They were wonderful. At one time, both Tony Cuffe and Johnny Cunningham lived here in town. A lot of great players come through here (with the notable exception of myself.).

Jaime Laval and Ashley Broder and Old Blind Dogs will be around shortly so Scotland is getting some of it's due. My buddies and I from Tony Cuffe's traditional repetoire class always play some Scottish and Shetland tunes in our "Irish" sessions.

[Dagger Gordon]

I hope to hear Jamie and Ashley. I heard a bit of him last year with Hans York. It'll be interesting to see how Ashley approaches the mandolin. I don't know anything about her.

Tony Cuffe will always be sadly missed.

[mikeyes]

I am sitting in the midst of the MIlwaukee Irishfest summer school surrounded by Irish, Cape Breton (including Jerry Holland), Scottish and who knows what else musicians looking for a mandolin and I seem to have the only one present. I made that remark about the mandolin to focus on technique and not style. The mandolin offers unique qualities that need to be taken advantage of instead of just being a minature banjo. The problem is that there are no Irish musicians who are doing that exploration while there are a number of musicians interested in Irish music who live elsewhere and play the mandolin as a primary instrument. While many of them have had a relationship with bluegrass, as far as I can tell they know the difference. Technique and style do not equate and in most cases, personal style and genera style don't have to equate, either.

The business of you can't play Irish if you are not Irish doesn't hold up. I will add John Carty (England) to the list. If it were true, we would have to wait a very long time to find an Irish born mandolin style and I am too old for that

Mel Bay Banjosessions

[Bren]

Martin Murray is a pretty distinctive Irish mandolin player but he's only made one solo record as far as I know, seems to be more often heard playing on recording sessions for other artists, playing fiddle, doing sound engineering etc etc
Admittedly his mandolin playing is not too far removed from his banjo style but like Gary Peterson he makes it sound "right" for the mandolin