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Thread: Loar Picture of the Day

  1. #1026
    Formerly F5JOURNL Darryl Wolfe's Avatar
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    Default Re: Loar Picture of the Day

    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Spann View Post

    Joe's response: We don't have any Loar F-5 FONs except 11985. Therefore, I don't understand how you know that "most Loars were shipped in FON order." I certainly wouldn't say that.

    Joe Spann

    This is the real subject at hand concerning Loar mandolins and many of my posts in the recent past.

    We do not have enough data points with Loar FON's to know what happened. We have only recently realized that it took some time to build those Loar mandolins prior to installing a July 9, 1923 label. Are we really to believe that they built all the ~48ish July 9 mandolins between the time they signed the 36 or so June 13th mandolins and July 9th.....I don't think so. If they did, then why did they have so many odd parts and neck and bodies that some of the later ones used.

    So FON's for Loars are the highest priority on my research list and we have been talking about the possibily of revealing some by MRI/Cat scan on another forum.

    Joe and I "sort of agree" on this "built by FON" and shipped by serial number deal. My only contention to that statement is that they "seem" to have changed their philosophy around 1924/1925. My belief is that the statement is entirely fact after 1925. But, it "seems" that they built, serialized and "stored or shipped" instrument in the years prior.

    Joe takes the viewpoint that they may have treated the Master Model line differently and serialized only those. This could also be true. That statement would make it hold true in the years prior to 1925. But, I view the hand written serial number under the labels issue as evidence that they changed their methodology during this period from one of build to completion and store/ship to one of "let's have semi-finished FON'd stuff in stock, but let's not finish up and install parts until they are sold, we'll put the labels and serial numbers on then.

    I believe that during the "golden years", Gibson was building MOST of their instruments to entire completion in production line order. The exception to the rule may have been that for lower selling items like a mandola......they started say 24 and completed only 12, leaving some FON's bodies in stock. This would be where we see stuff completed and serialized much later in Joe's manner. In my mind, it also accounts for the "A" suffixed FON's in 1925.

    That's all for now.

    Darryl
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  3. #1027

    Default Re: Loar Picture of the Day

    Darryl;
    If there actually was somehow to get MRI/CAT equipment lined up for scans, I am sure that a boatload of Loar owners would make their instruments available for the big reveal on these hidden #'s. I, for one, would certainly make what I have available.

    JohnD
    John D

  4. #1028
    Registered User Hendrik Ahrend's Avatar
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    Default Re: Loar Picture of the Day

    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Spann View Post
    Henry said, "Those "unsigned Loars" seem to be among the last "Loar F5s" made, as they feature the very dark sunburst and the double bound peg head among other traits."

    Joe's response: They were among the last Loar F-5 mandolins shipped, but they were built in 1923.

    Henry said, "In other words, despite some exceptions, most Loars were, indeed, shipped in FON order."

    Joe's response: We don't have any Loar F-5 FONs except 11985. Therefore, I don't understand how you know that "most Loars were shipped in FON order." I certainly wouldn't say that.


    Joe Spann
    Holy smokes, Harry Ferris, of course; debatable memory here.

    Joe, please allow for a little explanation. By "shipped in FON order" I certainly didn't mean single instruments. I meant the general idea of batches with obvious similarities (and exceptions). And since I gladly admit that I don't know for sure, I even said that those unsigned ones "seem" to be among the last Loars made. I just started from that assumption.
    Aren't we generally looking at (and talking about) earlier batches (such as July 9th '23) and later batches (such as Feb. 18th '24; and even within this batch the first without Virzi and the second with Virzi), meaning that those later Loars were actually made later? Now is that all wrong and far fetched, so that one might as well claim - until further FON evidence - the Feb. 18th '24 batch was produced before the July 9th '23?


    To quote Darryl in #1003: "These batches from Feb and March did represent the start of what some people refer to as "the black ones". Without going into severe detail, most every batch of Loars sported a variation in color. I do believe that these dark ones with a little bit of black in the coloring were done as a labor saving effort. They are beautiful in their own way. They simply do not have quite the multi- hued gradience of the earlier ones, suggesting (and from my own experience) a coloring that could be achieved easier, quicker and more consistently.
    And yes, starting with 75707 (the last two or three from the Feb batch) or there abouts, they all were bound on the face of the peghead whether flowerpot or fern."

    I might be wrong, but the way I understand Darryl's statement is that the "bound on the face of the peghead" version and the darker color came later, meaning were produced later. (Or what did you mean, Darryl, by comparing the "earlier" color to the later labour saving effort; did Gibson first try to save labour and then go for the more costly "multi-hued gradience"? )
    I might add that - just like on banjos - white plastic binding (as opposed to ivoroid) was a later feature. Now, the unsigned Loars have those - commonly referred to as - later features, and they share those with later '24 signature F5s (and with the H5s with known '24 FONs). #79835 signed Dec. 1st '24 even has the "unsigned Loar" FON 11985. But the unsigned Loars (and at least #79835 for that matter) were still made in 1923. Was the Feb. 18th 1924 batch (at least until #75329) with generally earlier features actually produced after that? Possible but doubtful.
    At the same time, I agree with Darryl (post #1026), so many instruments made in such a short time? Just as doubtful.

    After all, Joe, I just have to admit, I don't know the story. Can't wait to learn more about it; thanks for your work. (And where the heck does the Fern Loar batch fit in?)
    Last edited by Hendrik Ahrend; Apr-16-2014 at 6:02pm.

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  6. #1029
    Formerly F5JOURNL Darryl Wolfe's Avatar
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    Default Re: Loar Picture of the Day

    Here is an undated picture. If anyone can shed info on it please chime in. But let's discuss a bit

    I count 12 finished mandolins or mandola's per row. But there is a lesser number of guitars below.

    Note that these appear to be complete and strung up

    So the questions are:

    Are these fresh

    Or is this the "stock" to draw from when an order for this model comes in.

    Note that these appear to be pre-Loar era instruments.
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  8. #1030
    Americanadian Andrew B. Carlson's Avatar
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    Default Re: Loar Picture of the Day

    Is that guitar oval hole? I thought the ovals were late 20's. But I'm a small fish in this thread. Please correct me, cuz I'd love to have an oval L-4.
    Mandolin, Guitar, & Bass for Doug Rawling & The Caraganas
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  9. #1031
    Registered User pfox14's Avatar
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    Default Re: Loar Picture of the Day

    I've seen that picture on the website of the Kalamazoo Public Library and it is dated 1936. The guitars in the foreground are round-hole L-4s.
    Visit www.fox-guitars.com - cool Gibson & Epiphone history and more. Vintage replacement mandolin pickguards

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  11. #1032

    Default Re: Loar Picture of the Day

    Wouldn't the headstock inlays date all these instruments to well before 1936?
    BradKlein
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  12. #1033
    Registered User Benjamin T's Avatar
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    Default Re: Loar Picture of the Day

    Just my opinion, but I think those are more likely to be L1s, judging from the lack of side binding near the back. The Gibson script looks very similar to the 19 teens instruments that I have seen.
    Raphael Ciani Galiano circa 1920
    Gibson F-5G FB 2003
    John D'Angelico 1933
    Vivitone Acoustic #338 circa 1933
    Gibson F4 1915 Blacktop
    Shutt/ Harmony Viol Mandolin circa 1930

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  14. #1034
    Mandogenerator Mike Black's Avatar
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    Default Re: Loar Picture of the Day

    Quote Originally Posted by BradKlein View Post
    Wouldn't the headstock inlays date all these instruments to well before 1936?
    Correct, since the ones second from the top are A3s.

    And they are not white face A3s, so it has to be 1918 or earlier.

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  16. #1035
    Formerly F5JOURNL Darryl Wolfe's Avatar
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    Default Re: Loar Picture of the Day

    This is the type of conversation I hoped to bring about.

    I too, really thought the picture was from a group of photos taken in the '30's. The others I have with similar files names are definately '30's

    But just look at that stack of 'teens to 1920 instruments laying there. Yes, I see A3's and I see some model of 'teens L roundhole

    I had this photo filed away too...it is obviously 30's or 40's
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  17. #1036
    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: Loar Picture of the Day

    I guess this page from the K'zoo Library is where those two photos came from and a few others as well. I would love to see much larger scans tho.

    Ah, I see. You can order bigger scans from then here. Have you researchers ordered these already?
    Jim

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  19. #1037
    Formerly F5JOURNL Darryl Wolfe's Avatar
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    Default Re: Loar Picture of the Day

    In the process of ordering
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  20. #1038
    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: Loar Picture of the Day

    Gibson page from the history section of the Kalamazoo Library.
    Jim

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  22. #1039
    Registered User Joe Spann's Avatar
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    Default Re: Loar Picture of the Day

    Quote Originally Posted by Darryl Wolfe View Post

    So the questions are:

    Are these fresh

    Or is this the "stock" to draw from when an order for this model comes in.
    Or are they instruments freshly prepared to ship? Say, one morning's work..?

    Joe Spann

  23. #1040
    Mandogenerator Mike Black's Avatar
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    Default Re: Loar Picture of the Day

    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Spann View Post
    Or are they instruments freshly prepared to ship? Say, one morning's work..?

    Joe Spann
    Oh...You're bad!

  24. #1041
    Formerly F5JOURNL Darryl Wolfe's Avatar
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    Default Re: Loar Picture of the Day

    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Spann View Post
    Or are they instruments freshly prepared to ship? Say, one morning's work..?

    Joe Spann
    Well...maybe..that's why I said "are they fresh"
    Darryl G. Wolfe, The F5 Journal
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  26. #1042
    Registered User pfox14's Avatar
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    Default Re: Loar Picture of the Day

    I see what you mean about the peghead logos. They seem to be "The Gibson" slanted pearl logos. The Kal Public Library also has a picture of the Gibson workforce taken outside the factory that was marked 1920, but I think it's 1928-1929 as the same picture appears in Gibson's 1929 Banjo Catalog B-4.

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  28. #1043
    Americanadian Andrew B. Carlson's Avatar
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    Default Re: Loar Picture of the Day

    Did this thread just become a sticky, our am I imagining it? I just read through both LPOD threads again twice over this week. Coincidence? Such great pics and info!

  29. #1044
    Registered User f5joe's Avatar
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    Default Re: Loar Picture of the Day

    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew B. Carlson View Post
    Did this thread just become a sticky, our am I imagining it? I just read through both LPOD threads again twice over this week. Coincidence? Such great pics and info!
    It's a new sticky to me. Great idea.
    ..... f5joe

  30. #1045
    Formerly F5JOURNL Darryl Wolfe's Avatar
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    Default Re: Loar Picture of the Day

    Time for action

    Here is 81251 and 80417. A nice "unsigned" bad boy along with the last "signed" bad boy
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  32. #1046
    Registered User Glassweb's Avatar
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    Default Re: Loar Picture of the Day

    What's up D? Are these on the market or coming to a store near you?

  33. #1047

    Default Re: Loar Picture of the Day

    Quote Originally Posted by Darryl Wolfe View Post
    Time for action

    Here is 81251 and 80417. A nice "unsigned" bad boy along with the last "signed" bad boy
    My heart be still!!!!

    Len B.
    Clearwater, FL

  34. #1048
    Formerly F5JOURNL Darryl Wolfe's Avatar
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    Default Re: Loar Picture of the Day

    No...just a little rehash. I thought it a good place to pick back up
    Darryl G. Wolfe, The F5 Journal
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  35. #1049
    Rush Burkhardt Rush Burkhardt's Avatar
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    Default Re: Loar Picture of the Day

    Thanks to my friend, Brian Aldridge, of the Dry Branch Fire Squad...unsigned-Loar 81250 and the Gibson Company smokestack! Would that be considered "going home"?
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  37. #1050
    Formerly F5JOURNL Darryl Wolfe's Avatar
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    Default Re: Loar Picture of the Day

    I just sent this email to Christy Carty in reference to Loar 73725

    __________________


    See that scratch on the upper f-hole?

    I did that in 1966…on accident…you could say I didn’t have my chop quite perfected.


    Glenn Lehman bought this mandolin at Epstiens Music store in downtown Cleveland OH for $300 in 1966….he brought it for me and Dad to see on Monday

    It had just come in from somebody in Canada

    He bought it late Saturday

    My Dad and I were in there (Epstiens) the same Saturday morning looking at an F-12 for me…..they @8....ING did not show us the Loar

    So, obviously I’ve had an attachment to that mandolin for a little while. Glenn came close to selling it to me on several occasions.

    He finally took poor health and consigned it at Elderly maybe 6-8 years ago

    The last time I physically saw it was it 1986 at his house in Cleveland…it still sounded great, but had developed a side seam pooch at about 5:00 oclock I believe.

    http://cartervintage.com/mandopage/g...ins.html#july9
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