Troubadour Josquin Celtic Mandolin

[Jeff_Stallard]

A comment by an MC member got me wondering if General Discussions was the wrong place to review this mandolin, so I'm reposting the review here. #I hope this helps.

-------------------

I'm selling my Epiphone, and decided to replace it with a Troubadour mandolin. #I just got it, and thought I'd give you good folks a quick review. #For those unfamiliar with it, the Troubadour Josquin is a Portugese style mandolin, meaning it has the shorter, European scale length (identical to violin), a wide, deep body, and a semi-bowl back with 6 or so ribs.

Customer service was excellent. #It was shipped from Scotland to Ohio, and got here in six days. #I asked a question about recommended string guages, and he was very helpful. #Recommended guages are also printed on the label.

Stock hardware is...sort of poor. #The bridge is a softer wood, the tailpiece doesn't have a hole for a strap button, and the tuners are rough and inconsistent. #However, all of that is fixable. #I drilled a hole in the tailpiece and #disassembled & cleaned up the tuners. #I'm going to replace the bridge with an ebony one and get some horizontal Schaller tuners from International Luthier Supply (it has a slotted peg head). #Also, the nut is somewhat soft plastic. #Ordinarily, I'd replace it, but this instrument has a zero fret, so I don't think the nut makes any difference in the sound.

The action was fine, but everything was too high. #Better that then too low, right? #I just sanded the bridge and zero-fret down. #I very nearly destroyed the zero-fret however. #Lesson: ALWAYS MAKE SURE YOUR FILE IS LEVEL WITH THE FINGERBOARD. #Anyway, when I lowered the zero-fret, I also had to deepen the nut slots, but that's a simple task. #The action is 10 times better now that I lowered everything.

Wood construction is very nice. #All joints look good, edges are nice and flush, and everything feels very solid. #The top braces looked a little too thick to me; I was worried they would inhibit the sound (more on sound later). #The only visible imperfections are on the fingerboard. #It's not ebony, but some painted (stained?) hardwood (why paint that beautiful hardwood?!), and the paint (stain?) around the fingerboard-body joint isn't perfect. #I didn't notice until until I was inspecting it, so it's not something that sticks out. #The finish on the body and neck is very good. #I don't know enough about finish to say what kind it is, but it's consistent, with no imperfections.

Now for the most important part -- THE SOUND. #I'm amazed how this thing sounds. #Not only is it a low-end instrument, but it's brand new and hasn't had time to break in. #Despite those two things, this thing sounds great. #It has a lot of the clarity of a bowlback, with a slightly breathy, growly kind of thing along with it, and tremelo is very easy (can't figure out why). #It's also surprisingly loud. #It's not as loud as my Vega bowlback, but then again...not even the famous f-style bluegrass mandos can top my Vega in volume (Eat it chumps! #heh heh). #I have no way on quantifying the volume; I can only say that it's surprisingly loud. #The G string is a tiny bit quieter than the other strings however, but I'm not sure if I caused that with my zero-fret and bridge work.

CONCLUSION: This instrument is well worth the money, particularly if you have the tools and knowledge to adjust stuff to your liking. #Even if you have to pay someone to set it up, it would still be worth the money.

[Martin Jonas]

Jeff,

Thanks for the review. I have a 70-odd years old Portuguese-type and would describe the sound as similar to your description of the Josquin, so I think that's fairly typical of this construction. Luckily, the old one came with decent stock hardware and bone nut. Do Troubadour actually describe this as a "Celtic" mandolin (as in your subject title) or did you choose that description? I was wondering how you think the sound of the P-style (I pinched this from your post in the General forum, as I like it!) compares to the more common Celtic mandos, say a Fylde or Sobell. I haven't had a chance to listen to mine next to one of those and as I was wondering in idle moments about whether to get a Fylde for playing Irish material, I might not bother if the P has a similar tone quality anyway. I should say that I've played quite a bit of Celtic on it, and it sounds just fine.

Martin

[steve V. johnson]

I bought a Gervaise "tenor mandola" from David Kilpatrick at Troubadour as a gift for a friend who is a professional violist.

I ordered it a few weeks before the violist's birthday so that I would have time to either go thru it and fix things or just play with it. <GG> I played with it a LOT! <GG>
I got an extra set of strings and a gig bag with it too. I would say not to bother with the bag from Troubadour, there are better ones available here for just a few dollars more.

Since I'm not as familiar with true mando-tech as Jeff is, I missed the soft bridge. Anyway, right out of the box and tuned, the Gervaise was great fun, and the price was most comfortable.

David Kilpatrick has said that he ran across these while on holiday in Romania, and that he now orders batches and returns those that he finds truly sub-standard. He has said that this has resulted in better quality control from the builders in Romania.

David is a veteran player and knows both lots of musics and lots of instruments, and he is most pleasant to deal with.
These instruments won't ever compete with Sobells, Webers nor Gibsons, but for sheer value and fun, they are hard to beat. Wonderful!

Congrats, Jeff, and thanks for the review. I learned a lot from it!

steveV

[Aidan Crossey]

Echo the comments about David. He's a very nice guiuy, unassuming, generous with his time and pretty honest about the stuff he sells; for the money I reckon the instruments represent excellent value. Can't speak for the mandos, but bought a zouk from him some time ago and it was a real bargain. Easily worth three times the cost!

[bratsche]

I too got a Troubadour "Gervaise" mandola a little over a year ago, and can second everything Jeff said concerning the qualities and setup (or rather, lack thereof) of this make. I thought I'd get lucky buying mine on eBay, and I did, because I paid even less than the inexpensive going rate. However, I didn't get as lucky as I was hoping, as the instrument was described as a demo model that David had picked out specifically for its tone. Tonally it is wonderful; but in the setup condition in which it arrived, it was an intonation nightmare which still continues to perplex me somewhat. The zero fret was so high it hurt to play, and though I've filed it down some, it may well need more filing, as I'm always afraid to go overboard on things I'm unfamiliar with. (!)

I had to completely discard the amateurishly cut and notched bridge that came with it, finding right away that there was no way to tune it up even approximately on an instrument that so obviously demanded a bridge that was compensated, not straight. I carefully made a compensated bridge from ebony. Even though it is quite thicker than the original, with the C course all the way back and the A course all the way forward, it still needs to be mounted diagonally with the bass end closer to the tailpiece, and it is not yet completely rid of all the problems even with this configuration. Compromises must be made, tuning the open C strings flat in order for the fretted notes to not be too sharp (although the 2nd fret D is still noticeably sharp). Maybe this is correctable by further filing of the zero fret, but I don't know too much about zero frets, yet...

I also replaced the tailpiece with a standard 2-piece one, since the original, though of just one piece, is of a type which has sharp edges that cut into my forearm. It feels much better now.

It is still a pretty decent buy for the money, if you're a "tweak geek" like I am - I just wish I could make it play better in tune on the C strings. Also, the neck's a bit thick and clubbish for my hand.

Steve, when did you get yours for your friend? I too am a professional violist, and wonder if some of the "quality control" you mention had been implemented (especially with regard to setup) by the time you got yours. What kind of strings did you get for it? I am using the GHS octave mandolin set, which are a little lighter than their lightweight mandola set. Also, where are these bags you mention available? I got mine without one, and just keep it at home inside a large, unwieldy, homemade rectangular case, but I would like to have a bag that fits it also.

bratsche

[steve V. johnson]

Hi Bratsche,

<<I thought I'd get lucky buying mine on eBay, and I did, because I paid even less than the inexpensive going rate. However, I didn't get as lucky as I was hoping, as the instrument was described as a demo model that David had picked out specifically for its tone. Tonally it is wonderful; but in the setup condition in which it arrived, it was an intonation nightmare which still continues to perplex me somewhat.>>

There was a time when David wrote on the acoustic guitar newsgroup (rec.music.makers.guitar.acoustic) that some of the Romanian instruments were showing up on eBay and that they -weren't- from him. He warned that some of these were substandard (well, sub- HIS standards) and that some folks had complained to his website about them. I hope this wasn't what you got!

David has said that he still has to cull his orders and return some with problems. I have the idea that he personally does inspections and set-ups on his instruments... Anyway, I'm really sorry to hear of your problems!

I really don't like zero frets... <G>

<<Steve, when did you get yours for your friend? I too am a professional violist, and wonder if some of the "quality control" you mention had been implemented (especially with regard to setup) by the time you got yours.>>

I bought the Gervaise in Sept of 03. I'm really afraid that, unless you spoke with David, you got one from the ...
grey area. Have you spoken with him about these problems?
Even if you didn't get it from him, he may have important information that could help you out.

<<What kind of strings did you get for it? I am using the GHS octave mandolin set, which are a little lighter than their lightweight mandola set.>>

It came with NewTone strings (David's default set, according to him) and I bought a second set from him to add to the gift. My impulse would be to try to go heavier to get the deep tone from it, but then, I play bouzouki and guitar, with guitar-size strings, so finger wear is very different for me than for a violist.

<<Also, where are these bags you mention available? I got mine without one, and just keep it at home inside a large, unwieldy, homemade rectangular case, but I would like to have a bag that fits it also.>>

The gig bag is one that David mentions on his Troubadour website. Forget about it. It's made with much less quality than the instruments!! There are some inexpensive ones out there, check on eBay or at Musicians Friend. My friend the recipient of the Gervaise likes the shapeless, vulnerable nature of the bag. Hey... he's contrary and perverse anyway! <GGG> Seriously, the bag I got from Romania isn't worth the postage across the Atlantic. IMO.

If I get another one of David's Troubadour instruments, I'd like to try an Allen/Monteleone type tailpiece on it. I think the density would really complement the light construction. I'd like a zouk, but slotted headstocks make me... run the other way... <GGG>

best wishes,

stv

[bratsche]

Thanks for the reply, Steve -

I don't quite know what to make of zero frets, as this is my first close encounter with one. Ditto on slotted headstocks. ;-)

This is an instrument David himself auctioned on eBay. Nothing against David (I communicated with him via email prior to purchasing, and he seems very nice) or the instrument, it's just that it is proving darned difficult to tweak, but just the C strings... Perhaps Jeff will chime in again with more insight about what the height of the zero fret (it still feels high to me) will have to do with intonation, or with the price of tea in China...

Ah yes, the Newtone strings. Some other kind were on this one (and pretty well worn), but Newtones came on my pre-owned Canadian Sawchyn Beaver Tail mandola, and were very fine sounding strings, as I recall, but hard to find in the States. The Gervaise is my second of 3 flatbacked mandolas - I also have a Flatiron 1N. Each has a slightly different sound, and I like them all, for different reasons...

I have been asking sellers about the measurements of their gig bags, and either they're too small or too big, or I can't get an answer. Some day, though!

Cheers,

bratsche

[steve V. johnson]

Here's a mandola gig bag, from a retailer, on eBay:

Click Here: Check out "eBay item 3721425819 (Ends May-06-04 18:45:38 PDT) - Mandola Exceptional Quality Gig Bag Case New"

I guess the button didn't copy, so you'll just have to navigate to eBay and use the item # there...

All the best,

stv

[whistler]

Slotted vs. unslotted headstock is merely a matter of style.

A zero fret has the advantage of giving an open string the same timbre as a fretted string. It also saves the luthier some work making an accurate nut, since the nut, in this case, acts merely as a spacer. If properly set up, a zero fret should not cause any trouble. It is often set slightly higher than the other frets, although this need not necessarily be so. A high zero fret enables the bridge to be made lower without the strings buzzing on the frets, thus giving a relatively even string height along the fingerboard. However, as Bratsche's post indicates, if it is too high, the intonation at the first couple of frets will be sharp.

In the case of Bratsche's mandola, the problem may be compounded by the fact that it has a short scale length fo its pitch (it is a fifth lower in pitch than a mandolin, but the scale length is probably considerably less than 1.5 X that of a mandolin) and consequently has needs heavy gauge strings, which have higher stiffness and thus exhibit more pitch bend when depressed.

[bratsche]

As to the slotted headstock, I find I like it less when changing strings, as it forces me to actually wind the tuning keys (as opposed to simply wrapping the strings around the posts, as I do with the other kind!)

(whistler on May 07 2004, 19:18): A zero fret has the advantage of giving an open string the same timbre as a fretted string. It also saves the luthier some work making an accurate nut, since the nut, in this case, acts merely as a spacer. If properly set up, a zero fret should not cause any trouble.

I've heard Reason A given before, but can truly discern no difference between the timbre of open and fretted strings on the instruments I have that lack the zero fret. Nothing at all like the sound of open vs fingered strings on a viola/in. So I cynically tend to suspect Reason B is more likely true.

As I suspect, it's time to get out the file again. Errr, when I get a "round tuit", that is. :-(

bratsche

[Jeff_Stallard]

I haven't seen any rules about zero-fret height. #Since it's a fret just like any others, you COULD make it the same height as the other frets. #I left mine slightly higher, however, so I could lower the bridge more without buzzing.

I do notice a tone difference between fretted and open notes, so I prefer the zero-fret.

Make sure the nut slots are deepened to accomodate the lowered zero-fret. #Otherwise, you might get a buzz on the zero-fret, or worse the string might not even TOUCH the zero-fret.

I've been wondering if a compensated bridge would be a good idea, but I don't know enough about it to make a decision. #I don't recall ever seeing a compensated flat-top bridge. #Anyone know of a supplier?

I'm torn on the slotted head tuners. #On one hand, it's easier to tune because every knob turns in the same direction. #On the other hand, it is a little more difficult to string.

[Jeff_Stallard]

Do Troubadour actually describe this as a "Celtic" mandolin (as in your subject title) or did you choose that description?

Yes, that's how he describes it on his website.

[plunkett5]

I bought a Saga Pony Banjo gig bag from Elderly and it fits my Kilpatrick Mandola like a....well, like a gig bag. I recomend it.