1924 F-4

[Rich Michaud]

Question to LOAR SCHOLARS-As to a Gibson F4 that I just bought from Christie's-the serial number is #75677. The Mandolin Archive shows that Loar signed an F5, #75675-two numbers earlier than mine on 2/18/24 and also signed at least 18 more F5 Loars on the same date-the numbers range from #75689 to #75709. Can I conclude that my F4 is dated 2/18/24 as well? Second, how did an F4 wind up serial number-wise in the middle of all the Loars as to serial number and date? Any input will be appreciated. Rich

[danb]

Hi Rich,

It'll be *around* then, but nobody's really sure at exactly which stage of the construction Lloyd Loar signed the labels.

It's fun to say it's a Feb 18 1924 mandolin, and you might be right +- a couple months!

[Rich Michaud]

Thanks Dan for your quick response. I will send you pics of the humble F4 after I receive it. Its onroute to my luthier for cleaning and set up. Rich

[Ken Waltham]

Rich; Am I right in assuming that your F4 does not land in the middle of a batch though, correct?
I mean, there are not F5's ahead and behind it, in a group, is there?
I wouldn't think so..

[yoods]

Folks,
I am sure this has been said on this board before, but since it is sort of on topic I will ask anyway since I would like to know the answer, what is considered the first serial number of the Loar era?

[Darryl Wolfe]

70281 June 1922 is the first known F5.

However, it would be reasonably accurate in my mind to consider any truss rodded, adjustable bridge mandolin up through 80xxx to be Loar era. Essentially any serial number that begins with a 7.

[yoods]

Thanks.

[yoods]

But still a question...If a F-4 has the cremona brown finish, would it not be considered a Loar era F-4, even though it might have a number that starts with 67XXX or 69XXX?

[danb]

Not really.. Lloyd Loar did some stuff, Guy Hart did some stuff.. where you start the "Loar Period" is really entirely down to signed Loar labels. Prototypes are cool too IMO, and really these things were probably in-progress for more than a couple weeks so stuff well into the 81xxx-83xxx sometimes show features that align with 22-24 signed labels..

[fredhicks]

OK, now I am wondering. I have a 1924 F4 that is #80450.

[Rich Michaud]

On my 1924 F4, #75677, that I started this thread about, the tuner plate says "Product and Process Aplied For, Waverly Musical Products New York". Does this mean that the original tuners were replaced with Waverlys, or were Waverlys on the 1924 F4s, either as stock or as option?

[Darryl Wolfe]

They generally had Waverly arrow-end tuners, most often with odd brownish hued buttons

[danb]

Fred, that's just over the wire.. the last Loar signature label is 80416

[Darryl Wolfe]

I know we are splitting hairs on Fred's F-4 based on last known signed Loar label, but it's certainly Loar "era" to me.

I posted "essentially anything beginning with 7xxxx", but I would "essentially" include all 80xxx, and 81xxx numbers too.

I doubt we would want to exclude a snakehead Virzi A-4, A2-Z or F-4 beginning with 81xxx from a "Loar Era" club

[danb]

Yeah, it depends on how anal you're being about it. I have 81564. It's a snakehead, virzi, but a lacquer topcoat. Probably finished in.. 25? 26? Hard to be sure. We don't even really know for sure when Loars were initially shipped as a rule.

But by over the wire, I was guessing "probably 1925". I figure my 81564 is a 1925 based on the signature dates, but again.. it really is splitting hairs as Darryl says

[Darryl Wolfe]

I agree. The F-4 and Dans A-4 are likely 1925. Is this technically Loar era? No. Are they Loar era for all intents and purposes, Yes. With exception of signed vrs unsigned Loar F-5 mandolins, I do not perceive one bit of devaluation for the oval hole instruments until well past the 81xxx 82xxx numbers

[yoods]

All fun reading and good talk, thanks guys.