CBOM buying strategy

[acumando]

Greetings, Long scale folk

I'm thinking about joining y'all in the fun.

For years i've thought about getting a zouk -- i love the sound and the concept but the scale length is scary.

So i was then thinking about getting a cittern, though not sure what to do with all those courses, so maybe an octave mandolin...

Anyway, while i'm musing these things, i'm sending emails to some builders and find that i'm pretty much looking at a wait of 8-15 months for anything.

Of course being a modern consumer i have the instant gratification thing... i am zoukless, cittern- and octave-less, and it would be nice to get my hands on something now (or soon, anyway).

So, what would you do? #Go with a well-made, readily available option -- Weber Sage or Petersen for example -- or get on the list of the builder of choice and get a cheapie to pass the time. #Said cheapie will likely need to be sold once CBOM-of-choice arrives in order to placate spouse who just barely tolerates the instrument proliferation around here as it is.

Thoughts?

[otterly2k]

Acumando-- obviously there is no one right answer to your questions... and of course, a lot depends on your budget, playing style, aspirations and interests, hand/reach size, etc. So it would help if you care to share more about these aspects of your decision. Also...I'd encourage you to browse/read in the CBOM area and archives a bit, as (not surprisingly) there have been lots of conversations about the relative merits of all of these types of instruments, and many makers of instruments.

Other than that, I'd share some of my own experience. I first sampled some of the larger mando-family instruments. Started with a mandola, then bought a 'zouk. Both of these were ebay purchases, btw. The 'dola was a lovely and unique vintage Italian flatback. The 'zouk was a Freshwater in pretty rough shape. I ended up selling both of them... but in the process, I learned a lot and began to refine my criteria/preferences.

Then had the chance to buy a Trillium OM. Great instrument, and found out that it was the OM voice I was looking for... as I started to play more and more, and developed further my sense of how I wanted to USE this instrument, it became clear that the scale was a little too long for me. So I eventually sold that too (sadly) in order to afford the shorter scale OM that feels finally like the right fit.

So... how to apply this to your situation? If you have a pretty good sense of the voice you are looking for and know more or less what/how you want to play the instrument, and know your budget... these things can really guide you towards an informed choice.

However, if you're really exploring, I'd encourage you to allow yourself the freedom to explore for a while... don't sign on with a luthier for a custom order until you have a better sense of what you're looking for. Try to find something decent and previously owned, so that you can sell it and not take much of a loss if it turns out to just not be a good match. (For all those instruments I sold mentioned above, I didn't lose more than a couple hundred dollars, mostly in shipping costs, and I consider that fair "rental" price for having had use of the instruments for a while.)

That's what I think. It worked well for me, and the process was fun and informative. I used the same pool of (my own discretionary) money to buy/sell the instruments, for the most part, so that neither I nor my partner had to be worried about the impact on our cash flow or household finances.

To respond to a couple of your specific questions...
I'm an OM fan myself, and think it may be of interest to you as well since you like the zouk sound but find the scale daunting. If you are mostly a mando player, you will need to learn how to play a longer scale instrument somewhat differently than you are used to-- but with OM's, while you are working on that, you can still transfer a lot of what you can play on the mando. Whereas the shift in what/how you play on the zouk is a bit more marked. (unless you have really big hands) If you have a base in guitar, than the zouk may not faze you.

re: cheapies... start where you can, but if you don't have to start with the cheapest of cheapies, don't. If you can afford to start with a $4-500 instrument like a Trinity College OM, rather than a $2-300 instrument, I think you'll be less likely to be struggling with the instrument as you get started. If you can find a used Weber Sage or Petersen or Mid-Mo OM, to me, that would be even better.

*whew* that was long winded, even for me!

[otterly2k]

ps. just happened to notice a used Petersen on the 'bay. NFI

[acumando]

Otterly2K

Thanks for the reply.

Not really sure how i want to use it, just that I MUST HAVE ONE #

I've got some nice mandolins and a decent tenor banjo for playing tunes, so that's not really a need... i suppose i could be just wanting something to drone away on and merge with the great cosmic soup...

I've got a decent budget, i could manage $3k for a good instrument. #I've bought too many beginner-type instruments in my life, i'd prefer something nice. #When i say cheapie i mean Trinity College or their clones.

My hands are pretty big, no trouble doing fiddle/mandolin fingering on a 20" scale tenor banjo. #I'm really attracted to Nyberg's work and was thinking short-scale cittern, but then the zouk samples sound so nice with that big piano-like tone. #Nyberg told me his wait time is about 15 months, and i suspect it'll only get longer. #

Jack Spira told me he's up to about 8-9 months, Doug at Kennaquhair 9-10 months, haven't asked anyone else but i'm assuming their build times are in that year-or-so window.

I've owned several Weber mandolins, so i really trust the build quality and the availability of the Sage is pretty good. #Never played a Sage though, nor a Petersen.

I did see the Petersen you mentioned, i might put in a bid.

Anyway, the process is fun in itself, no matter what i end up with.

[catmandu2]

...placate spouse who just barely tolerates the instrument proliferation around here as it is.

Thoughts?

Trade in spouse toward said CBOM...

Naw, not really. But I've similar issues. Last night when I shared my brilliant idea as to how to solve my problem of shuttling about with so many instruments (a $20 trunk from Goodwill), my wife said immediately "now how much is THAT going to cost?"

[acousticphd]

Hey there acuoctomando,

I recently finished a conversion and setup of a Harmony archtop tenor guitar to an 8 string OM. #I barely knew what I was doing, but it has turned out surprisingly good. #These guitars keep getting more expensive to buy each year, but such a project probably would you cost under $300, and you'd have a vintage conversation piece (made of Genuine Hardwood). #Tenor guitar conversions have been discussed in a few recent threads. #It might be just the project to occupy your mind and hands till you get a custom instrument.

[otterly2k]

acu-
given the budget, I'd say get a Sage, Petersen or Mid-Mo for now (especially if you could find one used) and play it for a while... refine your preferences and then look to upgrade using that info.

if you're handy or interested in building, you could also consider the conversion project mentioned.

Either way, you get one NOW, and can also enjoy stretching out OMAS for a good long time! #

re: Nyberg-- Danny Packer is the only one around here that I know of who has one... you might PM him re: details.

[steve V. johnson]

Welcome to the Long Mando World! (I don't get five-course instruments, myself... <GG>)

I did as Karen did, but my road was longer. I started with a very inexpensive instrument and worked my way up thru about five different ones. This experience gave me essential information that I brought to Phil Crump when I ordered my custom, and favorite, bouzouki. I don't think that I'd be as happy with the Crump if I had not gone thru all those other ones and thus been able to know and to tell Phil clearly what I wanted.

It took me a long time to find each new instrument, each new 'step up' from the previous one. I was searching the market for used instruments (eBay was good), so it took a hard search and some serious time for each move. But the market is better now than it was back then, even tho OMs/zouks are still not terribly common in the used market.

But since you're a veteran player and ready for a nice instrument, here's what I've picked up along the way that might help....

You say that you have concerns about the scale length and that you'd like to buy one and have one and not wait for custom lutherie. Those two things suggest a moderate scale length and immediate availability.

Many luthiers make various lengths and a scan thru the CBOM archives will show you a LOT of discussions of scale lengths, but the current ... er... 'mean' length seems to be the 22"/23" range. (My Crump is 25.4".)

So I say Weber. Go to the Weber site and look at what's available now, or look at the Absaroka (A-style) at Elderly now. Then talk to your local (or another) Weber dealer and find out what else they have in stock. They usually have more than they offer on the website. The standard Weber Octave Mandolin is 22". Prices can be discounted nicely thru a dealer, and you can have a nice one pretty quickly.

It's good to buy whatever is available because Weber, like the smaller custom luthiers, can do about anything you want, so if you start asking questions you're back in that mire of options, and thus, longer waiting, again.

Webers, IMO, are more sophistcated instruments than Petersons, and seem to hold their values better over time. Bill's instruments are more ... um... zouk-ish than mandolinish, while the Webers are more mandolin-ish.

That's what I'd do. In fact, I have a set of specs for a Weber OM set aside now, for when I have the $ to order one, but it will be a while... Once you own one, you'l start to think of ways to change it, things that will suit your playing better, or will better lead you into the music you want to make. -THEN- you can contact one of the wonderful folks who make these instruments. They are certainly out there now... It's a great time to be CBOM-ing.

I hope this helps!

stv

[Celtic Saguaro]

I have a Petersen, really like it, and recommend them to others. Though I would add that Petersen OMs when it comes to playing have a very long scale and from what I've seen Webers are even longer. Using either as a zouk (ie. mostly for backup), it wouldn't matter. But for playing lead, it might. I've got big hands, but poor strength in my little finger, so it has been a challenge at times.

[Danny Packer]

Hey acu,

I love my Nyberg, and I do expect that his time will get longer. That said, I am inclined to agree with Karen that waiting for a custom until you really know what you want is a good idea, especially if you can afford to get a weber or somehing like that in the meantime. I had a chance to play a trinity college recently and for a really inexpensive instrument, I thought it was pretty good. They always seem to sell ok too.

good luck.

danny

[Steph]

Don't be so hasty to rule out a cittern, if you tune to use that extra sting to save you the pinky stretch in tunes that go above the high A it can be very useful. If you read the archives here you'll find very few people are even trying to use full chords and are mostly playing 2 or 3 finger chords on the bass strings in which case the 5th course doesn't even figure. It will give you a guitar sized neck though - no problem if you are used to it. If you get the chance try one!

[acumando]

Webers, IMO, are more sophistcated instruments than Petersons, and seem to hold their values better over time. #Bill's instruments are more ... um... zouk-ish than mandolinish, while the Webers are more mandolin-ish.

Thanks for the welcome, i'm having fun with the discussion. Thanks to everybody -- i'm learning a lot already.

I know you put the "...um..." in the above quote and that indicates to me that words are inadequate, the map is not the territory, etc, but i'd like to hear you elaborate a little more on that comment.

Zoukish meaning... sound? body style? neck feel?

I'm interested in zouk, i like guys like Eoin O'Neill and Alec Finn with that sort of contrapuntal-droney kind of style.

There are Petersens at Elderly and Gryphon, there's a Weber with a zouk scale (25.5") at Elderly that looks tempting, i also emailed Bob Gernandt who has a couple of his zouks (which are more like an OM scale, 23.5") available. So there are some good instruments out there.

Hard to try before i buy, though, since i am in South Florida which is a musical wasteland unless you're into hip-hop, salsa or reggae. No real sessions, either, to speak of... so i may be zouking on my own until i can find some like-minded people here. Still, i'd really like to have one... s'pose i should figure out what i want to use it for first, though...

[otterly2k]

acu-
I'll tell you my take on Stv's comment-- and no doubt, Stv will chime in as well (heck, arguing with Stv is half the fun!). There are a lot of variables here... and it is true that language fails us much of the time.

Judith had a Weber OM (based on an Absaroka design, if I'm not mistaken)... and since we play together a lot, I had ample exposure to its sound and played it many times. Structurally it was very like a mando, fully carved top and back. Heavy. Solid. Thick-ish plates. Very clubby neck. And like a mando, good note separation, but not great sustain. It sounded fine, but didn't ring, didn't (what was it danb said?) "chornnnngg" the way that I like. So, if you think you'll want to play it much like a mando but have a lower range, this could work for you. And yes, this was one mando, and there are many custom options that would change the parameters...so again, it's better if you know what you like/want.

Most zouks, you'll notice, and many OM's are made with a flat top and back-- this allows for construction with thinner top and back plates, and to me this makes for a different sound. Add to that the long long zouk scale, and you get the characteristic 'zouk sound--- thrummy and resonant, with loads of sustain. chorrnnngg! The Petersen is built this way, and I'd expect it to sound accordingly. (I haven't encountered one in person myself).

Less "sophisticated"? Sure...the design is simpler and they're easier to put together... that's also why they're much less expensive. That doesn't mean that they are lesser instruments... just different.

There are also some instruments built with an "induced arch" in which the luthier takes the flat plate and glues it to slightly curved braces... this adds some structural strength as well as providing a more vaulted interior space. The Trillium was like that. IMHO, it was superior to Jude's Weber and to any Sages I've tried. Had the richness of tone of the arched shape and the resonance and responsiveness that seems to come with thinner plates (more vibration).

So, anyway, Stv and I disagree re: Webers. Perhaps one with different custom features would be better. But I think they're over-priced. I'd sooner custom order from someone like Crump or Bob Abrams (Trillium) or Nyberg or one of the many other fine luthiers with a refined understanding of the long-necked mando-kin...

my $2

[Jim M.]

I started with a very inexpensive used OM, which got me hooked, and I've since moved on to more expensive ones.

If I was looking to buy my first now and didn't want to wait for a custom build, I'd go with one of the Petersons at Gryphon. I regularly visit Gryphon and I've played a lot of Petersons that have come through there. They are all impressive, and the different back woods definitely give them different characters. Gryphon has a walnut one now that is very nice, with a warm full tone. The maple one they have is also very good, but the tone seems a bit brighter to my ear and I prefer the walnut.

[4stringmania]

I recently purchased an OM built by Jimmy Moon in Scotland (see topic "basking in the moonlight..." for details). I'm really happy with it. I purchased it for $1100 from The Acoustic Music Company website (England) and it arrived in 1 week to the San Francisco Area. I tried the Petersen and actually like the Moon a bit better; mainly because it has a shorter scale and the bridge is closer to the middle of the body which makes it easier for me to play since I usually rest my hand behind the bridge.

[Gerry Cassidy]

+1 for Moons. I've been lucky enough to play a couple and enjoyed them both. The price is right in the pocket, as well. #

Webers are a good bet. A used Bridger A-OM (if you can find one) in the $1.7-1.8K range would serve you well until you're ready to move up. I've seen mahogany back/side F's in the $2-2.5K range, as well.

I would really like to play a Nyberg. You can tell, just by seeing them in pics' that they are really nice.

As you can see by the responses to your question, there are several good ones out there. Shouldn't be hard to end up with a nice player. Good luck, and let us know what you end up with.

[steve V. johnson]

Acu sez:

"Quote (sliabhstv @ May 07 2006, 23:16) Bill's [Peterson's] instruments are more ... um... zouk-ish than mandolinish, while the Webers are more mandolin-ish.

I know you put the "...um..." in the above quote and that indicates to me that words are inadequate, the map is not the territory, etc, but i'd like to hear you elaborate a little more on that comment.

Zoukish meaning... sound? body style? neck feel? >>

Sound, mainly. In the array of instruments that are Long Mandolins, they seem to go along a line from (my personal image)
big mandolins, per se, on one end to guitar-bodied instruments on the other, and I sort of grade the sound along that scale; whether it sounds more like a mandolin or deeper, like a guitar.

I've been in a bunch of discussions trying to quantify how this happens. At first I thought it had to do with carved or not carved top and back plates, then with scale length, but those aren't the thing that really defines the timbre. Now I'm thinking more about body depth and volume as the prime determinant of how mando-dry or guitar-resonant an OM/zouk
sounds. Guitar-bodied instruments that are built like pre-WWII archtops with F-holes have that drier sound, just as archtop guitars vs flat-top guitars, but the mando-bodied and onion-shaped <G> bodies are different.

I've been thru this a couple of times in the builders' area, with no real clarity achieved, but I've learned about the assumptions that go with some designs and some builders.

When I got my Crump B-II, the bass of it -scared- me! Somehow the fact of a 4" deep rosewood body never suggested to me that it would boom so much. I had been thinking that Eoin/Alec/Andy Irvine-Sobell sort of sound and the Crump does NOT do that. (Maybe if I strung it really lightly in octaves, tho... I haven't really tried that, tho I have tried octaves.)

<< I'm interested in zouk, i like guys like Eoin O'Neill and Alec Finn with that sort of contrapuntal-droney kind of style. >>

I had the honor to play Eoin's Joe Foley one time in Ennis. It has a very small body compared to most of what's being built now, and what felt to me like a short scale, maybe no longer than 22", tho it could have been 23". I hadn't a zouk with me then, I only took a guitar over on that trip, so I didn't have a lot of perspective. It was wonderful. Eoin tunes ADAD, btw, but he gave me permission to drop the bottom course to G for that evening. Joe Foleys are wonderful.

This may be far afield from your original question, but I hope it clarifies my earlier " .... um..." <GGG>.

stv

[otterly2k]

y'know Stv, I think the builders are holding out on us with whatever the magic ingredient is that actually makes for the differences in these instruments!!! I think it is a combo of all of the factors that we've identified, but nobody seems to be able to say for sure in what proportions. There are theories about all of it. Much of these are over my head. But no formula says for certain how it will come out... there's clearly some amount of intentionality and (it seems) some amount of je-ne-sais-quois...

maybe eye of newt?

[Danny Packer]

Karen and all,

One of the hidden factors is that once you make a decision and plunk down serious scratch for your custom ax, you better believe it sounds good!

Danny

[otterly2k]

True, of course, Danny-- but the secret ingredient(s) I'm talking about apply to my own as well as all those other great intruments out there...

[PaulD]

This discussion is timely because I'm in a similar situation, except I need to appease the spouse rather than hide/justify the purchase. I plunked down $$$ to get on Chris Baird's waiting list but I want something to fill the gap in the meantime. Besides, he's currently predicting a 2 year wait so it will be a year or so before I have to get specs to him. The only thing I've told him so far is that we want approximately the same neck as Judith's new Arches.

We've been playing a Weber Sage II, which overall I like but after playing Ken Sager's Old Wave and Judith's Arches it seems like it's pretty easy to "overdrive" the top on the Weber, if that makes sense... I don't really know how to describe it. If you play it hard you seem to lose some sweetness of tone or something.

In looking at Weber's Website, they archtop OMs are typically 22" scale while the Sage is 23". My friend's Sage is shorter... he measured it at 21" but I wouldn't have guessed it was that short. Weber says they've done a number of shorter scale Sages and if their computer were up they could tell me if there were any available at any of their dealers. It looks like anything less that 22" is pretty hard to find used... the Petersen's appear to be 22.5".

I would like to try a 'zouk, but whatever I do I need to make sure that the OM scale length works for my wife or she will beam death-vibes at me whenever I play it! I suggested to her that we can capo and tune a 'zouk to be an OM for when she wants to play but I don't know if that's a big compromise in tone and playability. If we get an OM we'll probably sell it when the Arches is done, if we get a 'zouk I'll probably keep it if I like it. In any case I agree with Karen's assesment that we should play a few before we do our custom order. We've got the best of both worlds; we're in the queue with Chris but it will be long enough before we have to commit to a design that we can ferret out some of our likes/dislikes.

Best of luck in your quest... let us know how it turns out.

Paul Doubek

[otterly2k]

Paul-- there seem to be a few zouks popping up in the Classifieds in the last few days... probably worth exploring.

Also-- I noticed that Daunt Lee (Minstrel instruments, Canada) has his stuff back up on ebay after being away for a while. One Minstrel owner will be at the Philly event on 6/10 with his axe, so it will be included in whatever write-ups come out of that event.

It's nice to have so many choices!!
KE

[PaulD]

Paul-- there seem to be a few zouks popping up in the Classifieds in the last few days... probably worth exploring.

Been there... I've sent a couple e-mails to sellers for more info... haven't heard back yet.

Also-- I noticed that Daunt Lee (Minstrel instruments, Canada) has his stuff back up on ebay after being away for a while. One Minstrel owner will be at the Philly event on 6/10 with his axe, so it will be included in whatever write-ups come out of that event.

I saw that too... I was going to spook around to see what I could find out about his instruments. I recognized the brand but I don't know anything about them.

It's nice to have so many choices!!
KE

Ain't it the truth! I appreciate the leads.

pd

[yoods]

Anyone here familar with Oakwood Octaves from England? How do they compare with some the better ones mentioned in this thread?

[stevebenn]

Acumando: Your old buddy Steve from the "Champions" thread here. There's a long-scale Foley for sale in the ads section ... unless it's been sold ... that would be worth looking into. I know this instrument indirectly ... one of the guys I play with borrowed it recently for some gigs ... he's buds with the owner ... and he loved it. If my buddy had $1800 to spare it would be sold. The zouk is in Asheville.

I have a short scale Foley, had it for about 16 years (it's #19) and it's one of my prized possessions! BTW my buddy has a Peterson, and it's OK, but ... if you have the $$$ buy something a step up, you'll never regret it.

Steve