Custom mandolin orders: ever disappointed?

[levin4now]

There are so many beautiful mandolins being made by small builders out there, I find it quite unbelieveable. The craftsmanship and finish and design are great.

For a guy who will eventually like to own a 'really nice' mandolin down the road (not necessarily from a small builder), I wonder if I will end up finding a used one, or a new one from a vendor that has the sound look and feel I'd like, or if I would custom order one from one of the great builders on this site (this morning's perusals include: Mowry, Gavin Baird, Hillburn).

So I wonder if anyone has ever been disappointed in the sound they get out of their custom mandolins? Is the "woof" there? Is that great woody tone there? I guess I'd be scared to save for that long, and spend that much money, and wait that long, only to have a gorgeous mandolin that does not quite sound like I hoped.

Maybe i don't understand the process. I mean no disrespect to any of our builders here - like I said - my only experience is seeing the beautiful photographs.

If any of you have struggled with this, or understand what I am getting at, I'd be glad to hear it. (If you actually have something negative to say, you don't have to be specific about the builder, at least not on this forum.)

[sunburst]

Instruments sound different, one to another. That's a general statement, and it applies to mandolins from different makers, and to mandolins made by the same maker.
A maker will, however, develope a relatively consistent sound, and one can expect a certain "ballbark" sound in a mandolin from that maker.
More experienced makers can even "push" their sound in different directions to try to accomodate the buyer.

But, there can be no guarantee that a custom order mandolin will specifically sound like "X" or "Y", especially if the buyer starts specifying woods and finishes.

If you find a mandolin built by a small maker, and you like it, there's a good chance you can get one that sounds pretty much the same, if the maker has more of the same wood that it's made of.
If you find one you like, and it's made from curly hard maple, and engalmann spruce, don't expect to say; "I want one just like this, except I want quilted maple and red spruce" and get one that sounds the same.

Some builders will take an instrument back, if you don't like it, and keep it 'til it sells, and then reimburse you a portion of your money. That removes a lot of the risk, on your part, and transfers some of the risk to the builder.

If you are seriously worried about the sound not suiting you, you are probably better off buying an existing mandolin rather than ordering a custom one.

I'd say, play a lot of mandolins, and if you find something you really like, buy it.
If you find a builder who's work you really like, talk to him/her and see if he/she thinks he/she can make you what you want, or, if the builder is able to build mandolins on spec, arrange to be able to check out the new ones when they're done.

[grandmainger]

Alan, here are some points for you to consider:
- A builder that can legitimately charge the money required for a "really nice" mandolin will normally be one that has produced a good few nice ones before, and should, from experience, be able to get the sound the client wants.
- Many builders will agree to sell the instrument to someone else, and refund the deposit when this is done.
- The client should understand that the instrument will open up with time and play, and may need just that to achieve the desired sound. Also, one can be enthusiastic, but should always keep reasonnable expectations...

Germain

[Bob DeVellis]

Alan - This is a good question to raise and one that I've considered. Part fo the equation is what kind of sound you're after. I think someone who wants a "bluegrass sound" form their mandolin is pretty safe going with a good custom builder. That's the sound most builders have been shooting for and they've probably gotten pretty consistent. Things are more complicated if you want some other sound. For example, I've been disappointed in some oval hole instruments that sound a bit too much like f-hole instruments but with poorer projection. They're not bad instruments. Many people really like them. They're just not a good match to my particular tastes in oval holes. For that reason, I worry about asking someone to build me an oval hole instrument. I play Irish music and many of the instruments that I see described as good for that music don't strike me as particularly well suited to it. Sometimes the phrase "great for Celtic and Old Time" is really code for, "unsuitable for bluegrass." The two are not equivalent. Some of the instruments described that way are unsuitable, period. But if your taste runs toward the bluegrass sound and you choose a reputable builder who has been making bluegrass-style instruments, I don't think the risk is too great.

[Onesound]

Back a few years ago I bought a custom A. It had beautiful tone, but, IMO, there were some flaws in the detailing that one would not expect at the price. I've seen much more recent output from this builder that were impeccable so it's possible that, depending on the builder, his/her early instruments are not of the same caliber as newer ones. Of course, one would expect any builder to improve with more experience, though not always. A few builder's instruments have been exceptional from serial #001!

[Patrick Killeen]

I wanted a very unusual mandolin and the only way I could get what I wanted was to have it designed and built for me. I very happy with it, but it's effectively a prototype and it's scary to think of all the things that could have not worked out. I didn't know exactly how it would look, feel or sound until I picked it up (but it's an electric so I did know there'd be scope to change the sound if I had to).

One question is how "custom" do you want your mandolin to be? Makers often have a range of options for their tried and tested designs, so you can get an instrument tweaked to suite your requirements which you can expect to sound much like its older brothers and sisters.

Here are your main options in order of predictability:

Buy a used instrument that has been broken in.
Buy a new good quality off the peg instrument and break it in yourself.
Have an instrument made by an established maker to an established design.
Have an instrument made by an established maker to a modified version of an established design.
Have an instrument designed and built by an established maker.


Or you could do what I did and take your strange ideas to an up and coming maker who's up for the challenge. It's great having a really nice unique mandolin, but I'd also be happy with an instrument which was just really nice.

Bye

Patrick

[Pete Martin]

I have ordered custom instruments and been disappointed twice. It made me think I would never buy anything sight unseen again.

Then I heard some Old Wave oval hole mandolins and knew Bill could build me a mandola with the sound I wanted. I am very happy with it.

[mandopete]

Where are the pictures?

I was disappointed when I ordered this "distressed" model Gibson mandolin...

[Tom C]

From my understanding and my experience....most builders require a down payment. When the instrument is finished, the balance is due. Of course you may get the mando and it may not be what you wanted or expected. -Not every mandolin is for everybody. Usually the builder will return your money when you return mando. Then they will return the down payment once they sell it to another person.

[chuck.naill]

That Gibson is not only stressed, but demented.

I had an f model custom built about 15 years ago and I was disappointed in the workmanship and the sound did make up for it, so I sold it.

The little Eastman 504 is the best mandolin for sound and workmanship that I have owned. My favorite f model is a Duff that I played that the owner is asking $5200.

Chuck

[Eric F.]

Where are the pictures?

I was disappointed when I ordered this "distressed" model Gibson mandolin...

LOL!

I've had three mandolins made for me. In each case, I had the right to send it back if I was disappointed. I wasn't. And while the first two are gone for reasons that have nothing to do with their quality, the third one is, unless the mandolin Mandopete showed above falls into my lap, staying forever.

[string_8]

I am still waiting for my custom to be delivered, so maybe I'm not experienced enough yet, but I would never buy an instrument based on reputation alone. I have to play an instrument from a builder to find one I like. I then rely on his expertise to keep his sound as consistent as possible. Talking to the builder also gives you confidence about whether he can deliver what you want or not.

[Big Joe]

When you first recieve your mandolin you may be a bit disappointed. Depending upon what woods are used, etc. it can take a bit to develop its tone. Some great mandolins can take over a year to reach their potential, but when they do, look out! Tone is extremely subjective and not always the same for everyone. Still, whatever way you go, you may want to play it awhile before giving too much judgement to overall tone. On the other hand, I've seen many that no matter what you do or how long you wait you would still have a dog. Your better builders can give you a pretty repeatable tone within the range they are shooting for.

[Mandoe]

I've only custom-ordered one new mando. The color/sound/playability/finish was everything I wanted. The scroll carving, however, did not meet my expectations. For the money anyway. So I sent it back for a refund. The builder understood. He had a long waiting list and sold the mando quickly.

I heard Alan Bibey say at a workshop once that the scroll of an F-5 is the hardest part to get right. If the scroll is clean, chances are high that great care was given to all of the mandolin.

My advice is to look closely at the scrolls of mandos you're considering. If they look clean and well done to you, then great care was probably put in to the building of the rest of the mando. Is this always the case? No. From my experience, however, it's a good indicator.

Brad

[PaulD]

I've only custom-ordered one new mando. The color/sound/playability/finish was everything I wanted. The scroll carving, however, did not meet my expectations. For the money anyway. So I sent it back for a refund. The builder understood. He had a long waiting list and sold the mando quickly.
.......

My advice is to look closely at the scrolls of mandos you're considering. If they look clean and well done to you, then great care was probably put in to the building of the rest of the mando. Is this always the case? No. From my experience, however, it's a good indicator.

Brad

Or order one without a scroll. More mando for your $$$, and if the color/sound/playability/finish is everything you hoped for you're done with it!

Even what constitutes a good scroll is subjective. I prefer the gracefully concave scrolls I've seen by Mowry and Baird to the relatively flat sided scroll on my Gibson F-9, but it's still a great mando for the money. I also like the non-traditional scroll that Weber does, but I'm sure they're not for everybody.

pd

[J. Mark Lane]

I have ordered a number of custom instruments in the past, including guitars, mandolins, mandolas and other instruments. Some have been "lower end" customs, others fairly high end.

I was a little disappointed with one instrument that I ordered. But at the time, I didn't know enough about the instrument type to really make an intelligent judgment. I had never owned one of those before (I will not say what it was, because someone somewhere might infer the builder and it would not be fair to the builder). In retrospect, it was a pretty good example for the money I paid. In most cases, I have been very happy if not thrilled with the custom instruments I have ordered. And I think it is fair to say that I could not have done better with a production instrument, in any given case.

The problem with custom orders is usually at the customer end. Particularly with relative newbies (or people who have never made a custom order before), the expectations may tend to get blown out of realistic proportion. Builders with fancy websites and beautiful pictures in some ways contribute to the psychology of expectations. The buyer almost expects the thing to jump out of the case and play itself...with expert dexterity and speed and perfect tone.... After all, it cost a lot of money!

I think for the most part the builders that we know around here, and the ones we know of, will produce, without fail for the most part, a high quality instrument, as good or better than anything else you will find for the money. I think with just about any of them, the result is likely to be something anyone could happily and proudly play, if their head is right. The quest is often for something the instrument itself cannot provide -- like talent <g>. For me, then, the fun is in the design, the details, the process, and the end result that is something that came from all that, something that I commissioned. I take a great deal of pleasure in playing an instrument that came from that process, hopefully without any illusion that it did anything much for me beyond that. I keep doing it, so I must be enjoying it.

Oh, one comment -- about the scrolls being an indicator of quality. I dunno. Yes and no. I've seen plenty of bad mandolins with perfect scrolls, and more than a few with mediocre scroll work that played and sounded beautifully. It can cut either way....

Mark

[smallshinything]

ya know, me not being the most experienced guy and considering ordering, and in the interest of pictures, can someone post good versus bad scrolls? I get the obvious-and I may own the ugliest scroll ever, but when it gets down to the nuance, what are we looking for? So maybe I'm looking for good versus mediocre scrolls.

[chuck.naill]

quote:
The problem with custom orders is usually at the customer end

It's a slippery slope to blame the customer. Find out what they what and dicuss the process so that disappointments are kept to a minimum. I am sure that being a skilled craftsperson and being a skilled business person at the same time is a challange, but it has to be covered.

Chuck

[J. Mark Lane]

quote:
The problem with custom orders is usually at the customer end

It's a slippery slope to blame the customer. Find out what they what and dicuss the process so that disappointments are kept to a minimum. I am sure that being a skilled craftsperson and being a skilled business person at the same time is a challange, but it has to be covered.

Chuck

Well, it's kind of a fine line, don't you think? To what extent does a builder "take orders," and to what extent does he or she provide counseling? If a client calls up and wants to place an order, and seems to know what he wants, I guess most builders will take the order. But the client may just be reciting a littany of criteria picked up from, say, the Mandolin Cafe. The customer may not have a clue. The customer gets the mandolin, picks it, realizes he doesn't sound like Ronnie McCoury, and complains. He wants his money back....

Was it the builder's job to explain up front that no matter what you will not sound like Ronnie McCoury?

Yeah, I suppose a wise builder ought to try to figure out what a customer really wants and expects...if for no other reason to avoid unnecessary returns. (I heard of one situation where a customer returned an instrument because it didn't have two side dots at the 12th fret....!) But I still am willing to bet that most of the problems...I should put that in quotes -- "problems" -- are really a result of an uneducated buyer, rather than a bad build.

[ShaneJ]

Yeah, or reality sets in when the wife sees the checkbook!

[chuck.naill]

Dear J. Mark Lane

Like it or not the American consumers demand satisfaction. They have the means, the choices,and the education.

You too are a consumer. In another post you were complaining about people humming during a concert. My point is that as a consumer, you have that right to complain. If the person conducting the concert said, "J Mark, you are just ignorant about the nature of concerts and therefore your bad experiance is really your fault". I don't think you would appreciate that sort of response.

If I were in the business of building instruments I would develop a process so that I would understand what the consumer wants are. Part of this process would be to tell that person what they should expect in terms of tonal qualities, break in period, etc. As far as workmanship is concerned, bad quality just cannot be exceptable to the builder or consumer.

Chuck

[Big Joe]

I'm not sure it is the builders responsibility to determine what the customer wants, but rather the customer determining what the builder can provide and chosing a builder that provides what he wants. If the buyer does not know, it is very hard to make something for him. While the good builders can build a great instrument, each builder does his thing and that is what makes him great. Better education by the buyer before contracting for a custom built...or any hand built..mandolin would be much better than anything else he could do.

Too often the buyer is not very experienced, does not know the difference from one mandolin to another and expects the new mandolin to make him like his hero. The truth is that no mandolin can do that. Picking the right builder for the mandolin you want will go much farther to acheiving expectations than hoping a builder can have some sort of ESP to know what any customer might want.

[Keith Newell]

Nicely said.
Keith

[PaulD]

Having done custom furniture, cabinetry, and remodeling I can tell you that you've got to be very specific on clarifying requirements. I'm sure most custom builders take good notes on things like style, woods, binding, stain, finish, hardware... all that stuff that's readily quantifiable, and get the customer to sign off on it just as I would when building a custom display case. How do you clarify the tone though? Have a section that says "Sounds like: 1927 Gibson Fern" or "Makes customer sound like: Peter Ostroushko"? I think it's the same as buying any kind of artwork: you can shop for an original, limited print, or mass produced image that you like, and you'll know what your getting, or you can trust the artist's sense of style to deliver something you'll be pleased with that's one of a kind.

Since this is in "Post a Picture" but there's only been one picture, and since Kevin asked for scroll pics... I harvested these from the Post a Picture of Your Scroll thread from sometime back. See the thread for more examples and better detail on these. This image represents work by Sunburst, Mowry, Lebeda, Loar, and a couple others. The one with the worst scroll binding is the Loar on the lower left... whoever ordered that one should have gotten their money back! If you want to see the ultimate "scroll", search for the images of J. Mark's custom Dean bowlback... COOL!

Paul Doubek

[PaulD]

DUH!!! It helps if you reference the pic, doesn't it!

My favorites here are Sunburst's (Hamlett - Top and Center Right) and Mowry's (Top Center). It's subjective and I wouldn't reject a great sounding mando because the scroll wasn't perfect.

pd