Gibson Loar

[John M. Riley]

How can you tell if a loar mandolin is the real deal or NOT? Is there a few fakes or copies out there?

[kudzugypsy]

you have to look at A LOT of REAL ones.

there are easy ways to tell - are the tuners correct and does it come with the original case. just those 2 issues alone could determine 85% of the decision, as original tuners and cases are unique to loars.

the not so obvious issues are pretty well documented in the "Loar Picture of the Day" - the loar gurus pretty much nail down some of the finer points that copist miss.....but again, the best way is to look and study a large lot of loars, as certain batches have certain characteristics.

i'm not certain that i (or anyone) could be sure 100% of the time, unless the instrument is well documented - if a copist had the means and original parts, then it would get tricky - but i have yet to see even remotely "dead on" fakes - there was a pretty good one made in the 70's by Wayne Henderson, and to be honest, IF john paganoni wanted to, he could - i have pag #35, and the detail he went into to reproduce EVERY detail in the instrument is impressive and downright scary - and he knows what they are suppose to sound like too!

[glauber]

Ask the experts. Personal message or email if you're looking to purchase something and don't want to spread the news.

[Links]

If some of the great builders had access to an original Loar, they could get it close enough to fool most (maybe not all) of the "experts". A number of years ago a craftsman in New England built a replica (fake) of an extremely valuable early American antique (Windsor, I think) chair. He did it to prove a point. He "innocently" placed it in an antique shop, and to make a long story short, it wound up in a very fine museum of early American furniture (I think it may have been the Ford Museum in Detroit). The original maker visited the museum and told the curator that the "prize" chair was a fake. The museum, after great debate declared that it was not a fake! The maker then told them how they could tell, as he had done something in the construction that would definitely identify it as non-original. The museum never admitted that it was a fake, but soon after, it was removed from the exhibit.

I recently saw a "Loar" copy down to the ""authentic" Loar signed label and this instrument would not fool anyone, but it had been around about 30 years and if certain things had been done properly, with 30 years of wear, it could have fooled a lot of folks. It turned out that the makers name was written in pencil on the top of the mandolin and could be easily seen in a mirror.

[AlanN]

um, a real Loar can have replacement parts, like tuners and cases.

[kudzugypsy]

yeah, it could....a real loar could also be spray painted with red krylon too, (i.e. - FW's '23) etc, etc...

[Darryl Wolfe]

I've only been fooled one time. My mistake was assuming it to be authentic. When approaching it from the standpoint of verifying it's authenticity, they really cannot be duplicated.

The particular being fooled incident happened when a noted builder handed me an instrument and said "how do you like the fret job I did on so-and-so's (familiar to me) Loar here".

The builder had made what was intended to be a clone of a Loar owners mandolin, complete with same wood, same scratches ect. and mostly original parts

[glauber]

The builder had made what was intended to be a clone of a Loar owners mandolin, complete with same wood, same scratches ect. and mostly original parts

Naughty Did he clone the labels too?

[John M. Riley]

alright. Thanks for all the replies so far guy and any more info would be appreciated. The mandolin that I played supposedly had the neck broken and replaced by a non gibson neck at one point. I was told the finish was original but it did not look like what I had expected to see on a loar. Kinda brownish... It had a 1924 label inside and was signed by loyd loar....It was not in the original case when I saw it, but the guy could have had the case at his house for all i know. What kind of finishes were availlable in 24?? Thanks guys...

[Jim M.]

Pictures of '24 Loars, so you can see finishes:

Mandolin Archive

[f5loar]

Hard to duplicate that smell of an 85 year old mandolin.
Especially if it was kept in it's original case. I suspect the one you saw was a fake. Hear in the Carolinas there are dozens of fakes with labels out there and many owners are convinced they are the real deal. Many have changed hands several times and the current owners still don't know they bought a fake. Watch out for Pink Calahan.
He's the guy who fooled George Gruhn with one in the 60's.
Pink claimed to have a 1921 signed Loar F5.

[John M. Riley]

Its a possibility the one I saw was a fake, but the finish looked so old and there was alot of checking on it....the color is definately off from the pics of the other loars I looked at....could have been refinished at one point I suppose....

[John M. Riley]

also it seemed that the f holes may have been a little wider than on my 03 Fern..is that normal???

[kudzugypsy]

lets just say from your descriptions so far - this one is probably a dud.

just like f5loar said, there are hundreds of fakes, 95% of them are obvious, maybe 5% could fool all but the most knowledgeable. from the info you've given, i would say this falls into the 95% category....again, you have to look at a lot of real ones, and some good fake ones to know - there are some that can tell just by the weight or smell or sound alone.

what will be interesting is the future of these instruments - think about faked master italian violins from the 17&18th century - most of them have passed thru so many hands and had so much repair work done over the years - yet it seems every other day, someone has listed an *authenic* Strad on ebay just because its old (my great-great uncle bought this over from italy..been in the family for 100years....etc) and has a strad label - then its the real deal....any amature violin luthier could see it was factory made in germany and sold thru sears at the turn of the century.....but people just dont want to accept they've been had.
as a matter of fact, the FIRST thing any violin hunter will tell you is not to believe the label - thats the easiest thing to fake.

while i'm certainly no loar expert or violin expert - i spent some time in my younger years with a really good violin luthier - i was bewildered and asked him how he could tell a $300 violin from a $3,000 violin from a $30,000 violin - they ALL looked the same to me (and most violin luthiers cant play a lick) - so he showed me lots of examples and lots of points, and after many years, you begin to just *see* a lot of things that other people gloss over - its really true that a fine quality instrument has a unique character all its own and these are really hard if not impossible to duplicate.

[Spruce]

"i'm not certain that i (or anyone) could be sure 100% of the time"

I think it would be pretty hard to fool the usual suspects...

Just like it's pretty hard to fool the usual suspects in the violin world.
That's why they get the big bucks... #

Loars have certain unique quirks that are totally ignored by most copyists I've seen...

But I think we're entering an age where we're going to see some very convincing copies, so the story will continue... #

[barry k]

Traditional, the mandolin in question, i believe I looked at the same one, and my thoughts were that it was a copy..but I have only seen about 5 Loars close.. things just didnt quite jive on it as it should have...no expert for sure on the Loar..

[John M. Riley]

yeah
I wonder if the guy that owned it ever wondered if it was a fake or not?
He said he had owned it since the 1950's though..thats the only thing that would puzzle me...

[f5loar]

Ask to see a dated photo of him holding it in the 50's~~~
That should put a stop to that tall tale. Just how old is this guy? Monroe couldn't remember the year he bought his Loar in and it was the world's most famous Loar. Holes wider than an '03? Should be narrower. The hard to tell fakes are those converted 20's F4 models. Same peghead inlay, same maple grains. The best thing this guy can do is send $35 to George Gruhn and get a factual appraisal.

[kudzugypsy]

yeap, spruce, your right.
anytime something gets to the price range we're talking about with loars, easily in the 6 figures, then someone with enough knowledge and the right mind set to do it - probably will. good grief, look at pre-war banjos - now that is the high art of fakery right there. everybody i know has a pre-war flathead banjo....greg rich says he made all of em

[Greenmando]

Reminds me of Randy Woods work. If you can build a mandolin that convincing, put your name on it.
I understand the idea of a fast buck, but I would rather sell for a reasonable price and take the credit for building it.

[Brian Aldridge]

speaking of Randy Wood, I still cannot understand why his mandolins do not get more attention and have not reached a higher point of desirability. I stopped by his shop in Bloomingdale the Wednesday before Thanksgiving, and he had a used lacquer F5 and the new RWF5. Both of these mandolins were incredible and should be snatched off the shelves. That RWF5 is very, very Loar-like. Of course, no finacial interest on my part whatsoever.

[danb]

Hard to duplicate that smell of an 85 year old mandolin.

Try singing basswood with a wood burner!!

The kerfing in the old gibsons is basswood. Jamie Wiens told me that trick, I think from belt sanding some for some reason.. suddenly the whole room smelled like Loars

You do get a different snootfull depending on the backwood. It's a great way to tell a cedar top when you aren't sure of the color because of finish.. and maple has a certain scent.. so does Koa, etc

[mandopete]

...and with the cost of heating oil going up so dramatically this Winter you can also save on your heating bill by setting your Loar on fire.

[OlderThanWillie]

Here's an excerpt from what George Gruhn had to say in his newsletter #9 in 2003:

By the late 1960s Gibson pre-World War II F-5 mandolins, particularly those signed by Lloyd Loar, were going up in value enough to attract the attention of forgers. In some cases they would build instruments entirely from scratch. The workmanship varied depending on who made them, but some were quite good. In other cases lesser instruments were being altered to more closely resemble the pre World War II original. Gibson F-12 mandolins were converted at such a rate that today it is relatively rare to see an unaltered 1950s or 1960s F-12. Many post-World War II F-5s were also converted by reshaping the peghead and adding a new fingerboard and peghead veneer done to the pre-World War II dimensions and ornamental specifications. Tops and backs were regraduated in an attempt to give a sound more equivalent to those of the 1920s. Depending upon the craftsman involved, the workmanship could vary greatly in quality but some were quite good and would require a discerning eye to identify them.

The full text is at Gruhn.com and is found by clicking on the Newsletter button on the left side.

[Ken Waltham]

I remember that letter from George.
I have never seen a fake that I felt could fool someone with experience.
Not that they may not be out there, but, it would take someone like Gilchrist to pull it off, and he would never do such a thing.
Some years back, my friend Lynn will remember, I went to NC to look at a Fern for sale.
As soon as we opened the case, we knew it was a fake. The owner did not know.
It was, in fact, a 1928 F4, that was converted to an F5. So, to someone not knowing, it had "old hardware", and a real old label with a 1928 serial number.
It did, but not the right ones...
Just like knowledgeble folks in other fields, where their expertise lies, jewellery, watches, lamps, whatever, a fake is normally spotted.
Watching the Antiques Roadshow will show you those guys can spot one.
Ken