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Thread: 1934 F5 copy

  1. #101
    Registered User f5loar's Avatar
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    Default Re: 1934 F5 copy

    Ole Joe should have contacted Ole Luke in LA. He would have shown him how to convert an H-5 into an F-5.

  2. #102
    Certified! Bernie Daniel's Avatar
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    Default Re: 1934 F5 copy

    Originally Posted by ArtDecoMandos Does anyone else think maybe ol' Mr. Joe Wilson was actually looking at an H-5 when he built this?

    Quote Originally Posted by Darryl Wolfe View Post
    Nice catch....appears so
    I thought that as well. I've always wondered what it was about the Gibson H-5 that lead to the "tighter" curl on the scroll. You don't see that on Weber or Eastman F-style mandolas.
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  3. #103
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    Default Re: 1934 F5 copy

    The Gibson mandola scroll does have a look that may be more graceful than the mandolin scroll. John Hamlett has managed to work this mandola look into his mandolin design. Simply beateous maximus.

  4. #104
    Americanadian Andrew B. Carlson's Avatar
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    Default Re: 1934 F5 copy

    I was just talking to Lynn Dudenbostal about the different proportions on dola scrolls after I saw his new dola. Neither of us know why it was carved differently. And he said the body is only an inch wider. Doesn't seem like enough of difference to constitute a different looking scroll. Why not just increase the size of every part the same percentage?
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  5. #105

    Default Re: 1934 F5 copy

    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew B. Carlson View Post
    I was just talking to Lynn Dudenbostal about the different proportions on dola scrolls after I saw his new dola. Neither of us know why it was carved differently. And he said the body is only an inch wider. Doesn't seem like enough of difference to constitute a different looking scroll. Why not just increase the size of every part the same percentage?
    I'd guess it's because it was something that whomever designed it (was it Orville? Probably later, right?) knew it would look graceful, similar, but distinguishable. I think it's appropriate that the look be distinct but bear a family resemblance, and I'm glad they did it that way.

  6. #106

    Default Re: 1934 F5 copy

    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew B. Carlson View Post
    I was just talking to Lynn Dudenbostal about the different proportions on dola scrolls after I saw his new dola. Neither of us know why it was carved differently. And he said the body is only an inch wider. Doesn't seem like enough of difference to constitute a different looking scroll. Why not just increase the size of every part the same percentage?
    I like that it's different, it's a beautiful analog approach. They had the designers and the artistry and they really expressed it in the instruments.

  7. #107
    Registered User William Smith's Avatar
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    Default Re: 1934 F5 copy

    ITS BAAAAAAAAAACK on the banjo hangout classifieds this time! 6 years later
    https://www.banjohangout.org/classified/31947

    I want her! So someone buy some of my Pag cases, I'll make ya a deal!!

  8. #108
    Registered User William Smith's Avatar
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    Default Re: 1934 F5 copy

    OK, this 34 Wilson F-5ish copy was on the banjo hangout for a while so I pulled the trigger and got it a few days ago at a fantastic deal! It really sounds the part and really great!, and will be better once I send her to David Harvey for a neck set "very much needed" to get the best sound and playability possible, a new riser block as there isn't one, and the end of board dips down, new frets, pearl nut, tuners, ebony bridge and a tailpiece assembly so the end pin can be installed. Pry a new pickguard as the original is quite distorted/wavy. David will work his magic. It is built heavy but I'll leave that alone. I have every reason to believe that this is indeed a 30's build even the bound F-holes were common in the 30's on guitars and some mandolins. And for sure sounds better than any oval hole F-4 or the like that I've owned or played! When work is completed I believe it will sound better than a lot of F-5's!
    It has the potential and I guess I'm the one that sees the potential in this than others as this changed hands quite a few times and no one put any work into her! This may be the first "real" copy out there?

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  10. #109
    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: 1934 F5 copy

    Very cool, B78. I look fwd to your report when the work is done.
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  11. #110
    Moderator MikeEdgerton's Avatar
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    Default Re: 1934 F5 copy

    Pictures and a sound file when it's done please
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  12. #111
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    Default Re: 1934 F5 copy

    Quote Originally Posted by bluegrasser78 View Post
    OK, this 34 Wilson F-5ish copy was on the banjo hangout for a while so I pulled the trigger ...
    Yeah! Report back. Post a video and/or a soundclip. Also send me one of your F-7s (or was it F-12...). You don´t need all that much mandolin.

    Enjoy.
    Olaf

  13. #112
    Registered User William Smith's Avatar
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    Default Re: 1934 F5 copy

    Yes as soon as I figure out my you tube problem-its been giving me grief! I'll have to spend some time fixing it when I don't have my 2 year old on my heals!! I'll post my original 1939 F-7, Very rare original 1 of maybe 4 1935 F-12, 2 F-7 conversions, the original lump scroll Gumby-1937 Cromwell G-6 one of maybe 7, The 1934 Joe Wilson F-5 copy, a 1924 Gibson Tenor Lute and a 24 Gibson TLute to Mandola conversion, A monster sounding 1935 Gibson A-50 with F-holes and elevated board. My 1936 Gibson F-5 Fern, And soon to be some old flowerpot F-5 signed by some guy named Lloyd!

  14. #113
    Oval holes are cool David Lewis's Avatar
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    Default Re: 1934 F5 copy

    Isn't Sam Bush's 'Hoss' a 1934? Might this be a way of getting a cheap Sam signature?
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  15. #114
    Registered User William Smith's Avatar
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    Default Re: 1934 F5 copy

    No the Bush "Hoss" is a 1937 that has had all the lacquer scraped off by Norman Blake and maybe John Hartford in late 60's early 70's? Also Randy Wood refinished and varnished it after the de lacquering in the early 70's. I also think he's had 3 or 4 new replacement fret boards on her since then. Sam may have an all original early 30's fern F-5? But the old war horse Hoss is a 1937. A lot of those 30's F-5's have the tone bars in correct Loar position-some don't though. Some have had the tone bars shaved down as some were quite heavy. I know one banned café guy that used to be a member has had more than one 30's-40's F5 tone bar shave down! So if your in the market for one and want originality you best do some homework!

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  17. #115
    Oval holes are cool David Lewis's Avatar
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    Default Re: 1934 F5 copy

    Quote Originally Posted by bluegrasser78 View Post
    No the Bush "Hoss" is a 1937 that has had all the lacquer scraped off by Norman Blake and maybe John Hartford in late 60's early 70's? Also Randy Wood refinished and varnished it after the de lacquering in the early 70's. I also think he's had 3 or 4 new replacement fret boards on her since then. Sam may have an all original early 30's fern F-5? But the old war horse Hoss is a 1937. A lot of those 30's F-5's have the tone bars in correct Loar position-some don't though. Some have had the tone bars shaved down as some were quite heavy. I know one banned café guy that used to be a member has had more than one 30's-40's F5 tone bar shave down! So if your in the market for one and want originality you best do some homework!
    Agh! '37! Darn.

    Banned member? What's with that?

    And not really in the market, just saw a way of perhaps saving money. I knew about the modifications... There is apparently a tape of the tone bar being shaved down, apparently....
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  18. #116
    Registered User William Smith's Avatar
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    Default Re: 1934 F5 copy

    F-7 conversions at are a great substitute for the whole vintage Gibson sound/tone/overall voice but they are not cheap but cheaper than your 30's "real" Gibson F-5's. I have 2 left but sold a monster 37 F-7 convert a little over a year ago when I was raising funds for my 36 F-5 Fern. That one 37 convert was a beast of a mandolin in sound, had a lot of original wear to the body such as finish checking etc...but what a mandolin, I would've kept it but needed the $ at the time. It was a real powerhouse of a mandolin. The guy that got it ended up getting a original 35 F-7 but it is very nice so he'll pry keep original. I say if they are real nice keep them original but if they have issues convert them and you'll have something that could be better than a lot of 20's-30's F-5's!

  19. #117
    Registered User William Smith's Avatar
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    Default Re: 1934 F5 copy

    Ok I called David Harvey and he's thrilled to work this old 34 Joe Wilson F-5. From the pix he thinks its the real deal! I'll pry have him plane the neck down once the boards off to make it a tad smaller also. Neck set at a deep angle, new fretboard-maybe radiused, with big frets, a riser block as there isn't one, pearl nut, new ebony bridge, new pickguard, new tuners, new tailpiece assembly so the end pin can be installed. I see potential in this old F-5 copy! There are 2 small cracks, one from over tightening the pickguard clamp screw and one on the lower body point, they look sound but David will look em over. I'll get it out in a week or so.

    Someone above said ya don't need that many mandolins, true but my answer is they all are different and special in their own ways, I love the different tones and overall voice of each mandolin and if you have the $ you may as well indulge in your passion am I right? Also my wife is very supportive and has never gave me grief of any sort when buying something! Her words are "well you know what your doing and you don't buy junk-meaning cheaper mandolins that will never have resale or collector appeal"
    Last edited by William Smith; Oct-24-2018 at 6:24am.

  20. #118
    Registered User William Smith's Avatar
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    Default Re: 1934 F5 copy

    Ok talked with David Harvey last night as he's had a chance to look at this thing, there are no tone bars or bracing at all in this Joe Wilson F-5ish mandolin, He has to do a neck set and thinks that it has a violin type neck set not dovetail "he hasn't taken it off yet" so far he thinks that its more than likely that Mr. Wilson had some violin building experience! And can't believe the top hasn't caved in! Must be some strong spruce! I'm having him put some light Loar style bracing and a lot of other stuff that needs done and this one should be a killer player when finished! David says it is pry one of a kind and from the 1934 date penciled in the back. I'll be sure and give updates because I think this is an important piece of mandolin history!

  21. #119
    Registered User William Smith's Avatar
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    Default Re: 1934 F5 copy

    Here are some updates on the 1934 "Joe Wilson" David sent me some photos of the progress, I'll have to get them out of my emails and move to a file so I can share them-odd at that! The neck and neck block are one! Meaning all one piece so a neck set is about impossible so we made the decision to cut a traditional dovetail out of the end of the neck and existing block! Really no other way? So now the neck has a dovetail and the rest "existing block" will be chiseled out and a traditional mahogany neck block installed to hook up with the neck dovetail David cut! This is positively from the year 1934 or that's when it was finally finished, started a year or so earlier than 1934? It is all varnished finished and all construction details point defiantly to a violin builder of really some skill! Its one very rare and neat piece of history! I don't know if he went by a photo or had an H-5 Mandola to go by "as it looks almost like an H-5?"

    I'm having him do a deep neck set, small/thinner style tone bars in the correct Loar position as its never had any top bracing! It'll need a new correct 5 scale ebony fret-board with replica inlays as the original as the board on it is a different scale, positioned correctly so the bridge will be perfect in line with both F-hole middle points! "You can look back at the original pix at the beginning of this thread from maybe the year 2006?" Also we'll be using some prototype Loar pearl button tuning machines that Charlie Derrington came up with long ago, an adjustable traditional ebony bridge, an F-5 style traditional pick guard, also a traditional Gibson type tailpiece assembly-I've been looking for a vintage plain Jane assembly "I missed one awhile back off evilbay-from a seller that usually has old vintage parts" If anyone has a vintage plain "not engraved with Gibson" please contact me? Also I'm not sure if we are giving it an adjustable truss rod or just a carbon fiber rod to lighten the load as I don't want to loose any of the original peg head inlay!

    This when finished David and myself believe this will be an outstanding and rare vintage toned machine! I'm just thrilled that after all the years and all the many people who have owned or had this in their possession didn't put any $ in her, and that I've had the chance to see the potential and finally do something about it!

    I'll try and find my photos to add here, I think this is one fine looking mandolin and I just know its going to sound the part as well when complete!

  22. #120
    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: 1934 F5 copy

    It is all varnished finished and all construction details point defiantly to a violin builder of really some skill! Its one very rare and neat piece of history! I don't know if he went by a photo or had an H-5 Mandola to go by "as it looks almost like an H-5?"
    Wow. Pretty impressive and courageous luthiery project! I guess I would call it a modernization rather than a restoration. This maker had some skill but was a bit clueless about how a mandolin is constructed. Hard to imagine that he never saw and examined a Gibson. No bracing or neck block? Yikes!

    In any case I am looking fwd to seeing how it turns out.
    Last edited by Jim Garber; Nov-25-2019 at 9:30am.
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  24. #121
    Registered User William Smith's Avatar
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    Default Re: 1934 F5 copy

    Yes Jim, I wanted her to remain as original as possible but the neck/neck block being one there really was no way to re-set the neck! And I'm a firm believer in the traditional dovetail neck joints! This one should be one heck of a mandolin when completed. I'm very excited about this one. Its gorgeous to me in looks and when I got her although it needed serious help it had killer tone and power. I know when completed it will be 100% better and I'm pretty positive there isn't another like it? But who knows as Loars/Ferns/later 30's flowerpots/ and fluer-de-lis F-5's still surface along with other one or two off Gibson's like that circa 1940 F-5M that was David Harvey's that Dawg used on Tone Poems. And mandolins like that circa 1929 'Lil Pup" and those very neat Epiphone F-styles? "I want one of those!" Don't need it but I do love odd ball mandolins with F-holes!

    Granted this isn't a Gibson but still weird stuff makes it out of the attic/closet/ peoples family stash etc...

  25. #122
    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: 1934 F5 copy

    Believe me, being a fellow oddball mandolin lover, I a right there with you. Sounds like some good choices. On one hand I believe some of us have the collector/completist bug. On the other it is saving those musical orphans that some folks avoid. It is always more interesting to go off the beaten path but still to appreciate the recognized excellence. Keep up the good work.
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  26. #123

    Default Re: 1934 F5 copy

    but it's not singed by lloyd loar

  27. #124
    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: 1934 F5 copy

    Yes, Lloyd was probably a very good singer but mostly in his shower.
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  28. #125
    Registered User William Smith's Avatar
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    Default Re: 1934 F5 copy

    Quote Originally Posted by ollaimh View Post
    but it's not singed by lloyd loar
    No this 1934 Joe Wilson is no Loar but a rare one for sure, no doubt that old from 1934, the construction, varnish finish and all the attributes that make this one built by a violin builder, no top bracing "amazing the top never caved in or dipped, David Harvey and myself couldn't believe that fact and it held up after all these years!" More than likely because it wasn't real playable? "I don't believe there was any evidence of say an internal post like that you would see on a Violin?" Also no riser block, the end of the fret board was sinking/dipped way down because of this, the neck joint made it terrible to play with such awful high action and the fret-board was way off so the intonation was plainly terrible etc. The frets were cut way off not in the proper places! This was for sure built by a violin builder and during the depression so someone could've wanted a Gibson type mandolin but didn't have the 250+ bucks to buy one? Or this could've been "Joe's" personal experiment to see if he could build something like a fine Gibson? We may never know? This is more than likely the first real good copy of a Gibson but the body is bigger like a cross between an old 3 point an H-5 dola? In an earlier post on this thread someone superimposed an H-5 over this Wilson and it was pretty close?

    Has anyone ever found any of Mr. Wilson's violins by chance? That would be another very interesting find to compare his violin construction to the this mandolin? I hope I'm not beating this thread to death but I feel that this is a really important mandolin-historic in a sense because the only other F styles around this time were the D'Angelico and some had bound F-holes and I believe they were built bit later than 1934? Also the few Epiphone Windsor F style mandolins besides the obvious Gibson F styles? I really do believe this one is a very unique piece of mandolin history! This pre-dates any other Gibson copy by what 30 years, or close to it? I have no doubt that this one will be unique sounding when made playable again? It sure has the unique look to the construction and I'm thrilled I was able to buy it and seen the potential of what it could be once playable. I know this changed many hands but seeing it needed the neck work is the only reason I can think of as why it changed so many hands?

    The case is also very unique and positively one of a kind and built for this mandolin, it looks like a neat piece of folk art?-This Wilson doesn't fit in say a Loar case, Paganoni case? I'm hoping it will fit in say a rectangular TKL or the like as the original case is not real practical as it just fits very tightly and I like a rectangular case with room anyway

    Does anyone know where this mandolin originally surfaced by chance? I'd like to find out where this thing first turned up? I imagine here in the states? I see Dan B. had this across the pond in England for a time as he compared to a very fine 26ish Gibson F-5 and you can see that this Wilson is longer than the 5 body? I'd appreciated any other info from previous owners of this old odd ball mandolin, where found etc...

    I'll try and search for my photos in my emails so I can get them posted so you all can see the inside and how the neck and block are-for sure very odd! To me this is just a very special old mandolin worthy of making playable and David Harvey is the perfect man for the job of resurrecting this old beautiful mandolin! When I showed it to him he was stumped and in a state of awe as he never heard/seen one like it so that was great news to me and I'm thrilled I was able to get this at a very reasonable price for what it is! David has it over a year now and really studied on how to do the neck job as myself he likes to keep things as original as possible but we decided on the traditional dovetail and that will help preserve the neck/joint for more than likely ever! We'll probably go with a carbon fiber truss rod as I don't want to cut any of the unique peg head pearl inlay above the nut!

    I'll defiantly find and post the photos of the work done thus far sometime this winter once I find them and get them in a file! Yes so if anyone knows where this little feller surfaced please let me know? Also I'm still on the hunt for a traditional plain tailpiece assembly, I know there has to be one out there that's not engraved but vintage for the 20's-30's as I don't want to use the one that came on her originally?

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