Oval holes

[Peter Hackman]

I like the sound of oval holes, and might buy one
if it's loud enough. Living in Europe I can't afford
the luxury of trying before buying. I must trust
the testimony of others.



Now it seems
that oval holes are by default
short scale, which might
entail a loss of power. This has put me off and
made me choose an f-hole Collings last year.

Recently I've reconsidered;
I have small hands, and feel I have to stretch a bit
to play flat keys like A flat or D flat in
first position; maybe the shorter scale would
solve that problem for me.

What are your thoughts on this matter?

[Jim M.]

Oval holes aren't necessarily short-scale. The Gibson F4's have the same length scale as the F5's but the neck joins the body at the 12th instead of 14th fret. Some find this shorter neck less comfortable but I do not find a noticeable difference in playability.

Many of the bowlbacks I have tried, Lyon & Healys, and, I believe, the Martin bent-tops have a shorter 13" scale. I have fairly large hands and I find these a little cramped. For the L&H, I believe it is the asymmetrical ones that have a shorter scale, and the symmetrical-bodied ones have the longer scale length.

[mandroid]

yes, Gibby style As and the F4, versus the F5; it just seems shorter, string length is the same.
some modern builders can build a version with the 12th fret out on the neck and an oval sound hole body.

[Rex]

Both of my mandolins are short scale oval hole instruments. I like them, but they are not for everybody, especially a hard core bluegrasser wanting to drown out 5 string banjos. I sold my F5 years ago and never looked back. One way to try out a short scale is to tune your current mando down half a step and then capo the first fret. Mid Mo sells violin scale instruments. My bowl back has a 13 inch scale, my Martin copy has a 13 1/4 inch scale. You might want to experiment with different gauge strings also. But if you do get a bowl back make sure you get strings designed for it, don't use the standard mando strings, too much tension. I use Dogal strings on my bowlback and standard strings on the Martin copy because it is built heavier. I prefer the Martin copy. The neck on my 100 year old bowl back a bit too tiny and the whole thing is just harder to hold onto. The Martin copy has a thicker and wider neck and the body has a flat back. It sort of looks like a Mid Mo but with a bent top. On my old F5 the long scale and heavy strings and chop chords caused me some hand and finger and wrist problems a while back and I had to drop the mando all together for a year. The shorter scale is a joy for me to play and I like the tone of the oval hole instruments also, but different strokes for different folks.

[Paul Hostetter]

Peter, before this discussion rambles any farther, can you clarify that by oval-hole you mean a Gibson style oval hole model such as an A-4 or F-4? #The scale on Gibson mandolins is always the same - 13.875" or so - regardless of model or vintage.

I don't think the oval-hole models are a priori deficient in power, but they do have a different characteristic sound than the average F-hole item. Maybe a little less cut on top, but more breadth, which is why I like them. If you want a Gibson-style carved mandolin with a short scale, you're either going to take Rex's advice and have to capo to the first fret, or have a custom instrument made. In either case, the shorter scale will result in somewhat less power.

[Dagger Gordon]

You might consider a Ryan Air flight to London and head down to The Acoustic Music Co in Brighton. Huge selection of mandolins (Web site).

My son got a flight to Goteborg, Sweden last Jan for 1 penny (!) plus airport tax.

[Peter Hackman]

Peter, before this discussion rambles any farther, can you clarify that by oval-hole you mean a Gibson style oval hole model such as an A-4 or F-4? The scale on Gibson mandolins is always the same - 13.875" or so - regardless of model or vintage.

I don't think the oval-hole models are a priori deficient in power, but they do have a different characteristic sound than the average F-hole item. Maybe a little less cut on top, but more breadth, which is why I like them. If you want a Gibson-style carved mandolin with a short scale, you're either going to take Rex's advice and have to capo to the first fret, or have a custom instrument made. In either case, the shorter scale will result in somewhat less power.

Thanks everybody for clarifying the matter.

Yes, Paul, I'm
thinking of Gibson or Gibson-derived A's and F's.
I have indeed played a couple of F2's or F4's
in the past; I'm also familiar (and enamored) with
the oval hole sound of Andy Statman, to cite
but one example.

Although I play very little in 4th position I guess
I would be confused by a neck meeting the body
at the wrong fret, as I am on the guitar.
I would be confused by a capo, too; nasty little
things that tend get in your way.



I guess I'll go home and devise some
fingers-stretching exercises in A flat.
Or buy Marshall's books?

I'd like to say this about the Collings: Apart from manyflatted keys in 1st it has solved most
of my left-hand problems. The solution was
radiused fretboard, a comfortable neck profile,
and a properly cut nut.

[Stephen Perry]

I've not found switching back and forth between violin scale and the longer scale mandolin particular puzzling. No more so than popping from viola to violin.

The short neck v. long neck is more interesting. Long (normal) neck mandolins don't seem to balance as well. They're wider and require more attention for my left arm. The short neck versions hang in nice and tight, easier for me to play relaxed. Up until I get up the neck a little, then the short neck interferes with easy reach.

Compromises.

[Rex]

One thing I really like about oval hole mandos is the way they handle double stops and drones. The drone will ring out while you play a melody above or below it. I play a lot of drone notes and double stops because I play a lot of Irish stuff and Norman Blake type tunes. Blake is one of my favorite mando players and I have his Home Spun course. He prefers oval hole mandos. On an F hole mando the drone notes are too much like melody notes. They have a loud percussive pop but die away like a banjo. Great for bluegrass solos but not for my playing.
I am surprised to hear all Gibsons are long scale. I thought some of the early A styles were shorter, but maybe it's just because they meet the body at the 12 fret that I thought that.
Peace,
Rex

[John Rosett]

i saw jimmy martin on a tv show from the 80's last night, and the mandolin player was playing that old F4 of jimmy's. that mandolin had as good a bluegrass sound as any mandolin i've heard.
also, i really wonder when i read people talking about the lack of upper register reach on the short neck instruments. i play all kinds of music on my '13 gibson A, and i have no problems playing up to the 17th fret, and i'm not even using my little finger. i guess i don't ever need to play any higher. remember, there's no money past the 5th fret...

[mythicfish]

'... no money past the 5th fret..."

Gave me a good laugh. I'll remenber that for sure.

Curt

[red7flag]

I am having Don Paine make me a Pomeroy 12 fret not raised F4. I got hooked from hearing a friend's 18, I think, Gibson F4. I loved the tone more than his F5s.
Tony