Instrument values

[bsimmers]

I thought this was interesting. It's part of Gruhn's June 2003 newsletter.

"Today there are as many people accumulating vast assemblages of new so-called limited edition models by major manufacturers such as Martin, Fender, Gibson, PRS, and Taylor with the view that these will be great investments for the future. I have written at length on this topic. As most of my customers and readers are well aware, I am personally highly skeptical of the future investment potential of most of these so-called limited edition models. It is my firm opinion that instruments which are designed simply to be displayed in a glass case rather than to be actually used as musical instruments for their tone and playability are not likely to be destined to become great investments. This is especially true if they are priced at an extreme premium due to their limited edition status. The great instruments of the past from Stradivarius and Guarnerius violins on down to pre-World War II Martin flat tops and great Gibson and Fender electric guitars of the 1950s were designed and priced to be used. The fact that they have gone on to be great collector's items is very directly related to their inherent quality as well as rarity. Scarcity alone does not make an item good."

[Michael Lewis]

He's right, scarcity alone does not make an item good. Quality of materials, structural design, workmanship, playability, tone, feel, appearance, utility, etc are what make an instrument good.

[tree]

Wow, and I thought the price of Loars was high. #Check this out:

http://www.gruhn.com/features/LesPaul275/EB5770.html

It sure is a beaut, and I'd sure love to plug it into a nice vintage tube amp and have a go, but at that price I'd be afraid to ask! #I'm guessing that the quality is very high, the supply must be nearly non-existent, and there are plenty of wealthy collectors out there who would snap this up without blinking at the price.

[Blueglass]

I've got a friend who bought a limited edition Cowboy Martin guitar. Now years later he can't even give the thing away. The reason is because of the sound of the dumb thing. So one example of Mr. Gruhn being right.

[mandopete]

Having collected U.S. Coins since my childhood I have always remenbered two things about valuation in a collector environment - scarcity and want. #Sure you might have one, but without the other you won'thave much of an investment.

Personally I could care less about investing, I buy what I like and tell my kids - don't bother sellng this when you inherit it as it won't be worth all that much.

[f5loar]

Well I guess it's time let go of my John Denver Taylors!
A LP Standard at $275,000? What would a LP Custom be?
Loars and Ferns are way underpriced IMO. In fact prewar D45s are still at a bargin.

[Links]

Gruhn is absolutely correct! Practically all items that are produced as "collectibles" are anything but. Try and sell anything made by the Franklin Mint. If you like that stuff and intend to keep it fine, but you will be bitterly disappointed when you try and sell it.

Does anyone remember the guitar of the month guitars that Gibson produced in the midle 90's? Most of them were dogs, as guitars, but as "collectibles" they were even bigger dogs. I turned them down at original dealer cost five years after they came out!

[mlbex]

I had a buddy who had Les Paul # 002. I played it once; it was awesome. It was solid black, with ebony fretboard and cream-colored (white?) binding.

I shudder to think of what it might be worth. He claims it got stolen.

[bjc]

Coins are a good example. I collected when I was younger and there were some I had that were very rare, but not valuable and others (1909 S VDB) that were not all that rare but worth more...

[kidtwist]

Having collected U.S. Coins since my childhood I have always remenbered two things about valuation in a collector environment - scarcity and want. Sure you might have one, but without the other you won'thave much of an investment.

That's true. I used to collect ancient Roman coins and was amazed at the low prices of some of them. There's a joke about it:

A guy goes to a coin shoe and sees a 2000 year old Roman Denarius. The coin dealer says there's only 3 of them known to exist in the world.
Customer: "How much is it?"
Coin dealer: "Twenty dollars".
Customer: "Twenty dollars! How's that possible?"
Coin dealer: "The other two guys who collect those already have theirs."

[kudzugypsy]

i learned a BIG lesson that ties in with GG's article -
when i was a young pre-teen, a buddy and i were all into collecting comic books - we would go buy 2 or more of these "limited edition" runs and pack them in mylar bags and dare not touch them. we were all into how much our "collection" would be worth in 25 years. at the same time, i bought a few of the "golden era" comics that everybody grew up on - not really being into them, as i thought they were corny kids comics, not the *hip* stuff we were into. well, as i grew older, i packed them all away, and honestly forgot about them for 25years - then, while cleaning out my parents attic, ran across them and went to ebay to see just how much money i was going to make from all those mint limited editions - guess what - they werent worth squat - maybe 10 of them were in the $25 range, most were $5 and below. but guess what - those golden era ones we overlooked for the limited edition ones had gone up an astounding 1000-3000% - i had 1 old comic alone that was $1800.
that showed me a lesson on the merits of limited editions - and i wont fall for that anymore.

[bsimmers]

$275,000!!!!!!

I have a 1959 Les Paul Junior. I had a builder tell me about 15 yrs ago that it was worth about $1,200. Anyone have a clue? I'm hoping, but not counting on $275K.

[Greenmando]

A friend of mine has a comic book store, the current thought is that you can get more than you paid for it - sell it now. What is wanted now may not be next week. The average rule is 10 cents on the dollar for used comics in mint shape. Always exceptions, I have a few worth a few hundred each, but most are worthless.

A buddy of mine bought one of the "limited edition" 454SS chevy truck, at the time only 500 was to be built. He locked it away in the garage, just to see them keep making them for years.

[sbarnes]

i have a '56 les paul (even have the original fake alligator cardboard case and the little 'gibson 6' amp that was sold w/it....it's in pristine condition but i've been told it's worth a lot less than that 275k....

[bsimmers]

sbarnes,
You mean my alligator case is fake?

[357mag]

I wont belabour this, but back in the 70s, a number of firearm mfgrs flooded the market with "comemmoratives". Mainly Colts Industries. There was some vague interest in them, but for the most part they only appreciated by way of inflation. Nothing else.

[Professor PT]

Try and sell anything made by the Franklin Mint. #If you like that stuff and intend to keep it fine, but you will be bitterly disappointed when you try and sell it.

You mean that my Star Trek commemorative plates are worthless?! I thought they commanded premium prices on the prestigious Bradford Exchange! I have a first edition "Trouble With Tribbles"; I'm sure it's worth more than a Les Paul.

[mandopete]

I have a first edition "Trouble With Tribbles"; #I'm sure it's worth more than a Les Paul. #

L.O.L.

...yeah, now I'm really wishing that I bought the piece of French toast with the Virgin Mary on Ebay too!

[mandodude]

...yeah, now I'm really wishing that I bought the piece of French toast with the Virgin Mary on Ebay too!

Pete,

I did buy it.

Mmmmmm... delicious!!

[Links]

Professor:

I recently took a bunch of items to a friend's antique store to sell for me. It included a bunch of "collector plates" that I had inherited from my mother. I "made" him take the plates as part of the deal. I told him he could give them away with each purchase, provided he could get anyone to take them.

Now the Bradford Exchange plates - that's a different story!

[Jim Hilburn]

bsimmers,
If that JR. is all original it's worth a heck of a lot more than $1200 but no where near $275K. That's a VERY desirable guitar.
The magic years for the Les Paul Standard are '58-'60.
Goldtops and Customs don't even come close. There'a about the same number in existance as there are Loars. But probably a lot more people who cherish them.

[Bob Sayers]

At this point in my life, I just want a high quality instrument that sounds and plays great--in other words gets the job done. If it appreciates in value over time, that's great, too. I can certainly understand and appreciate those people who collect vintage instruments. They're wonderful things to behold. I had a couple of great instruments for nearly 20 years: a 1942 herringbone D-28 and a 1917 F-4 mandolin. But I got a little tired of worrying about losing them to damage or theft. So I sold them and bought a couple of terrific new Martin guitars and a couple of terrific new Gibson mandolins. I have fewer worries and couldn't be happier. As for investments: My D.C. area condominium appreciated in value (paper value anyway) by more than $300K in the last 5 or 6 years. Turned out to be a better investment than a Loar, right? And I can live in it!!!

Bob

[bsimmers]

Jim Hilburn,
My Les Paul Jr. is all original, a few scratches on the back. It belonged to my great uncle, who passed away about 2 yrs ago.
In the late '60's a old man "down on his luck" came to town, and Uncle Marv let him stay with his family for about 3 months. When the old man left, he gave Marv the Les Paul and an old Gretsch amp(tube). Uncle Marv kept the Les Paul under his bed until about '95, when I took it to Paul Beard to clean up the electronics. Marv put it back under his bed. The family gave to me when he passed away. I'll never part with it. I was just curious about the value.

[Philip Halcomb]

I too agree with Gruhn, look at all the Gibson Monroe model mandolins out there for sale. Everyone wants 10,000 bucks for it, but the ones I've played have been sub-standard in the tone area compared to a lot of other mandolins. I suppose that's why everyone's selling theirs.

[Links]

Flip:

The difference with the Monroes was that they were the top of the line instrument commensurate with the top models being built today. What has hurt them is the same thing as with the other models of that era. The body is bolted to the neck rather than with the original dovetail joint. All that said, I have varnish model that I would put up against any of the new varnish Ferns that cost much more. And mine is one of the ones that is not for sale for 10K or 12K - may not be worth that, but I would not sell it for that!