Classical mandolin method

[MandoJon]

There is a thread about a violin method and there are plenty of Bluegrass methods and the odd Irish/Celtic folk method too. But what I have never seen is a complete classical mandolin method.

Is there such a beast and, if so, is it worth getting by a folk mandolinist making painful steps towards the classical genre (yes! I have been seduced by the Light Side )

[John Craton]

I have never seen is a complete classical mandolin method.
Is there such a beast

There are several, though some are rather hard to come by in the U.S. Plucked Strings (which unfortunately had to close due to the owner's illness) used to import several excellent methods including the Ranieri and Gautiero methods as well as some of the technique books by Gertrud Troester/Weyhofen. These are still available from Trekel in Germany. Wolfhead Music in the U.S. has published a facsimile edition of the 1896 Carlos Curti method. And if you can be patient, Marilynn Mair's new method will probably be released early next year (I believe it will be published by Mel-Bay). I've seen a prepublication copy of Marilynn's book, and it will be an excellent resource when it's out.

[Martin Jonas]

There are loads of classical methods, mostly written between 1880 and 1920. Some of them are very difficult to get hold of and/or very archaic in writing style. However, one of the best classical methods is readily available as a downloadable e-book in PDF format: the Bickford Mandolin Method has been republished by Djangobooks for $8. The write-up at the site emphasises Bickford's stylistic similarities to gypsy jazz picking. That's true to an extent, but Bickford is very definitely a classical method, not a jazz method. There were originally five volumes of the method, but only the first two are available at Djangobooks. While you're there, you might also try the Cristofaro method, although that one is a bit more dated (only $5, though, so you may as well try it). The Lansing etudes that were written to accompany Cristofaro are probably more musically satisfying than the method itself.

Martin

[Jim Garber]

Bickford is very definitely a classical method, not a jazz method. #There were originally five volumes of the method, but only the first two are available at Djangobooks.

AFAIK, there were only four volumes to the Bickford method. I have copies of volumes 3 and 4 for sale, if anyone has the need. BTW Volume 3 has a nice section on playing duo-style. Thos two later volumes are near-impossible to find and have been out-of-print for many years.

There are a few other classical methods worth mentioning. The 6 volume Calace method, I believe still available from Trekel (see above) and the Munier method are worth seeking out. There is also the Pettine method which was reprinted as late as the 1960s (I believe) and can still be found.

Jim

[MandoJon]

I did a search (which perhaps I should have done first - sorry) and came across many references to Sol Goichberg's 35 Progressive Etudes. There was a link to somewhere in the Mandolin Cafe but the link doesn't work. Was this work downloadable?

[Bob A]

<a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/Thirty-Five-Progressive-Mandolin-Etudes-Book-New_W0QQitemZ7342184089QQcategoryZ43392QQtcZp
hotoQQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">Here's</a> a link to the etudes.

[John Goodin]

The Goichberg etudes are great exercises. I had a new copy in my hands just over at week ago at the CMSA convention in Denver. Michelle Garman is apparently setting up a new business with Norman Levine (Mr. Plucked String) and had Norman's usual display at the convention. This included several of the items mentioned in this thread. I don't have her contact information handy but I bet someone else can supply a link to the new business?

John Goodin

[Martin Jonas]

Michelle Garman is the ebay seller "summernight" of the item linked by Bob. See her Ebay store.

Martin

[Jim Garber]

<a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/Thirty-Five-Progressive-Mandolin-Etudes-Book-New_W0QQitemZ7342184089QQcategoryZ43392QQtcZp

hotoQQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">Here's</a> a link to the etudes.

I (maybe too often?) recommend those etudes. Not only do they stretch your playing, but they are nice melodies and fun to play. definitely worht the few bucks for them.

BTW that eBay seller is Michelle G who has access and is selling off the stock of Plucked String. She is the one to ask in the US for any copies of the newer methods mentioned here. She can order them for you or might even have them, in stock.

Jim

[Bob A]

This seller has multiple copies of various Munier methods and exercises. I've ordered a set; <a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/C-MUNIER-METODO-PER-MANDOLINO-2-PARTE_W0QQitemZ7370027246QQcategoryZ38105QQssPageN ameZWDVW
QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">here's</a> one.

[Eugene]

Here is an obscenely small and modest list I posted that includes several of the major "classical" methods.

Some of my intensive, dense favorites from America's "golden era" that aren't listed because they aren't in print and haven't been for decades are Stauffer's 30 Progressive Studies and Siegel's Special Studies.

[Jim Garber]

Some of my intensive, dense favorites from America's "golden era" that aren't listed because they aren't in print and haven't been for decades are Stauffer's 30 Progressive Studies and Siegel's Special Studies.

I have been selling quality bound photocopies of those studies for some time. PM me if interested.

Jim

[Eugene]

However, one of the best classical methods is readily available as a downloadable e-book in PDF format: the Bickford Mandolin Method has been republished by Djangobooks for $8. #The write-up at the site emphasises Bickford's stylistic similarities to gypsy jazz picking. #That's true to an extent, but Bickford is very definitely a classical method, not a jazz method. #There were originally five volumes of the method, but only the first two are available at Djangobooks. #While you're there, you might also try the Cristofaro method, although that one is a bit more dated (only $5, though, so you may as well try it). #The Lansing etudes that were written to accompany Cristofaro are probably more musically satisfying than the method itself.

Michael at Djangobooks was negotiating with Fischer to make all four (I've only ever heard of four) volumes of the Bickford method available. I don't know if he's still working towards that end.

On the Lansing Exercises, I have those but have only given them the most cursory read-through. Yes, however, they are pretty stimulating. I don't think the Cristofaro/Christofaro method itself should be too denigrated though; it's various editions have been a decent ground-floor introduction for decades. Yes, it is rather dated and predates the semi-formalization of "duo" techniques.

[Martin Jonas]

Four volumes of Bickford -- you're right. Don't know where I got five from.

Martin

[MandoJon]

Thanks everybody for all the information. I will be sending a wee note to Santa (I've been an awfully good boy).

May I display my ignorance a little further? What is the "entry point" for the likes of Bickford and the Goichberg etudes? Do they start from scratch or do they assume you are already a "competent player" (whatever that may be). I'm self-taught and am migrating from a folk background so, while I've played a mandolin for a while (on and off), I do have deficiencies in some areas (e.g. sight reading - I can read, just rather slowly - but I'm working on it).

I get the impression that some of you are teachers and have probably taught many people like me - with all our little foibles and 'interesting techniques'. Obviously, you can't know how well I play without hearing me but let's assume I'm at least off the bottom rung. I have a passable tremelo (once I've warmed up); I happily throw in hammer-ons and pull-offs (what I suppose a classical player would call slurs/trills). I know my FFcP scales and the basic Jethro Burns 3-finger chords. I read well enough to let me memorise celtic jigs, reels, hornpipes etc. (i.e. I'm far from being a virtuoso but at least I have a rough idea of which way round to hold my mandolin).

I'm looking for something that will consolidate what I know and then take me on to at least being a competent classical player. BUT I have NO access to a tutor. Given this information, am I aiming too high, too low or just about right by choosing Goichberg and Bickford?

Thanks

[Jim Garber]

Bickford 1 starts from scratch. Goichberg's are Progressive Etudes so they start slowly. The first few are similar to fiddle tunes or the pieces in the early Suzuki books. Nice, relatively simple music. Then it builds. The last etude is played in all the keys. In the middle are various right hand techniques like short tremelos and different tempi.

I don't think that you can go wrong with either and the prices are right.

Jim

[John Craton]

Curti and Gautiero also start from scratch, as does Marilynn Mair's method. The Mair method is designed to be used both as a standard method and for self-instruction when a teacher is unavailable. You probably don't want to wait till it comes out next year, but I'd definitely encourage you to get a copy as soon as it's available. Keep a lookout on the bulletin board as I'm sure its release will be announced here.

[MandoJon]

Thanks again! I am greatly encouraged to find these sources so highly recomended.

It is sooo frustrating grinding away at pieces that technically I can play standing on my head while gargling water but struggle to read on first sight. I find I race ahead and literally loose focus on the written music, second guessing what comes next by how the tune is going and the key or mood or something (I suppose I'm anticipating by ear - I don't really know). I'll not even notice I've done it for several notes until it all goes horribly wrong (especially in melodic and harmonic minor pieces unsurprisingly). I have to stare at each note, locking on to it, for fear of my eyes drifting across the page. Still, I suppose everyone has to go through this...

Never mind! I've put everything else (apart from having some fun with fast celtic tunes to save my sanity) on hold until I can get over the worst of this hump.

BTW Operaguy is right, I'm too impatient to wait for Marilynn's book right now, but will definately consider it when it does come out. I have a chunk of holiday due me and I have a plan

[MandoJon]

I bought the Bickford methods and the Lansing studies. They look promising. Bickford 1 does not contain an techniques I don't already know but will be great to help my worst area (reading) and as a check on the correctness of my self-taught techniques.

I have a question about pick direction notation in Lansing though. It would appear that the pick direction marks in Lansing are upside down and back to front (in order). The usual downstroke mark appears as a 'u' instead of 'n' and the upstroke appears as a 'v' instead of '^'. They are also arranged usually with the 'v' on the beat. Am I right in assuming therefore that this is just an old fashioned way of doing things and that 'u' actually means 'up' and 'v' means 'down' in this case?

[Eugene]

Of course, Lansing compiled his book of studies as a companion to the Cristofaro (often misspelled Christofaro) method. Even though Cristofaro starts at the very beginning, it is a classic and might be worth a spot on your shelf.

Is there a specific study to which you're referring, Jon? In looking at my copy, all the downstrokes I could find are labeled "^" and upstrokes the squared equivalent of "u."

I really like Bickford, but be mindful of his rather speculative historical anecdotes regarding the instrument.

[Daymando]

I've found many of the old methods to have "reversed" articulation directions, that is, opposite of what one would find in bowed string literature. I've chalked it up to period mandocentricity, though I'll admit it makes sightreading with correct indicated pick directions challenging if you're used to bowed string indicators (as I am).

-Allen.

[Martin Jonas]

In looking at my copy, all the downstrokes I could find are labeled "^" and upstrokes the squared equivalent of "u."

Well, yes, I think that's the problem: the more common way of notation is exactly the other way around.

Incidentally, Jon, when studying Bickford, keep in mind that he was a proponent of the rest stroke technique, by which the pick travels in a downward arc through the target string and then comes to rest in direct contact to the next (unstruck) string. That's a powerful technique (much adopted by jazz guitarists), but contrary to what is implied by Bickford's prose, it's not the consensus classical technique, nor even a majority view.

Martin

[Eugene]

In looking at my copy, all the downstrokes I could find are labeled "^" and upstrokes the squared equivalent of "u."

Well, yes, I think that's the problem: the more common way of notation is exactly the other way around.

Jon noted:

The usual downstroke mark appears as a 'u' instead of 'n' and the upstroke appears as a 'v' instead of '^'.

which isn't quite the case. #The upstrokes in the Lansing book still open upwards and the downstrokes, down. #Lansing reverses the roles but not the direction of the standard modern symbol. #There is a lot quirkiness to old notation and still a lot in plucked notation (actual slurs vs. phrasing indications, etc.).

Actually, Martin, rest stroke is pretty prevalent in classical mandolin, but I don't think so much so as Bickford would favor. #It is my default in passages slow enough to be wholly executed in downstrokes. #Gertrud Weyhofen (then Troester) advocates its frequent use in her videos and studies. #Unlike Bickford (and, I think, most of the rest of the world), I don't rest on upstrokes.

[fmaurer]

Anyone used Silvio Ranieri L'Art de la Mandoline?

[John Uhrig]

Welcome to the forum! You sure did latch on to an old thread, but it was a good one. Personally, I haven't used Ranieri ( never found a copy I guess ) I have worked through the first 2 Bickford books, and they were great. Marilynn Mair's book is really good for someone starting out IMO. Seems like I have collected a lot of old method books and sheet music and I seem to bounce around using all of them.