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Thread: Irish Bouzouki vs. Greek Bouzouki

  1. #76
    Mandolin tragic Graham McDonald's Avatar
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    Default Re: Irish Bouzouki vs. Greek Bouzouki

    According to an article in the October 1980 Frets on The Boys of the Loch, Dave Richardson's first double strung instrument was based on a the size of a Levin mandolin body with a 19" scale (tenor banjo) neck and built by Gerald Short from Chesterfield. That was around 1970. The Short instrument was replaced by a Sobell in 1975. What Dave probably didn't realise at the time was that Levin had been making flat backed tenor and octave mandolas since the 1920s, though I have no idea of their availability in the UK.

    Cheers

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  3. #77
    Registered User Mike Anderson's Avatar
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    Default Re: Irish Bouzouki vs. Greek Bouzouki

    Thanks Graham. would love to see some photos some day, and some of the Sobell as well.
    "But wasn't it all stupid nonsense, rot, gibberish, and criminally fraudulent nincompoopery?"
    - Neal Stephenson, Quicksilver

  4. #78

    Default Re: Irish Bouzouki vs. Greek Bouzouki

    If anyone has a greek bouzouki id be interested in buying

  5. #79
    Mandolin tragic Graham McDonald's Avatar
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    Default Re: Irish Bouzouki vs. Greek Bouzouki

    Here is the photo of the Boys of the Loch from the Frets article, which I think is the same instrument that was posted earlier.

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  6. #80
    Registered User Mike Anderson's Avatar
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    Default Re: Irish Bouzouki vs. Greek Bouzouki

    Quote Originally Posted by Graham McDonald View Post
    Here is the photo of the Boys of the Loch from the Frets article, which I think is the same instrument that was posted earlier.

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    Brilliant, thanks so much Graham!
    "But wasn't it all stupid nonsense, rot, gibberish, and criminally fraudulent nincompoopery?"
    - Neal Stephenson, Quicksilver

  7. #81
    Registered User zoukboy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Irish Bouzouki vs. Greek Bouzouki

    Quote Originally Posted by Graham McDonald View Post
    Here is the photo of the Boys of the Loch from the Frets article, which I think is the same instrument that was posted earlier.

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    Graham,

    Is that photo captioned in the Frets article? Does it confirm the instrument in the photo is the Short? It looks to me like the very earliest Sobells.

  8. #82
    Mandolin tragic Graham McDonald's Avatar
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    Default Re: Irish Bouzouki vs. Greek Bouzouki

    No captions except the names of the players and I think it is the Sobell. I did some googling a few years ago trying to find something out about Gerald Short, but came up with nothing. Perhaps time to try agin!

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  10. #83
    Registered User zoukboy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Irish Bouzouki vs. Greek Bouzouki

    Quote Originally Posted by zoukboy View Post
    CORRECTION: The octave mandolin in question was built by Gilchrist, not Monteleone (my bad), and Darol says it started out as a mandola. Waiting for other data like scale length, etc.
    UPDATE: from Darol:
    "The Gilchrist was a giant F-5 with a 17&3/4 " scale. Too short for an octave mandolin really. but it's tremendous as a mandola."

  11. #84
    Registered User Colin Lindsay's Avatar
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    Default Re: Irish Bouzouki vs. Greek Bouzouki

    Quote Originally Posted by zoukboy View Post
    But it wasn't a "cittern body." There is very little correlation between a cittern and the original Irish bouzouki bodies, unless you are referring to Sobell's "cittern" design, which came later
    I just meant the general teardrop design, which would have been used on any number of instruments, unless they were all invented later. Judging by some of the theories that abound, it will take Sci-fi fans interested in parallel universes and time travel to be able to explain which came first.

    Johnny’s bouzouki is shown below along with an early cittern….
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    "Danger! Do Not Touch!" must be one of the scariest things to read in Braille....

  12. #85
    Registered User zoukboy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Irish Bouzouki vs. Greek Bouzouki

    Quote Originally Posted by Colin Lindsay View Post
    I just meant the general teardrop design, which would have been used on any number of instruments, unless they were all invented later. Judging by some of the theories that abound, it will take Sci-fi fans interested in parallel universes and time travel to be able to explain which came first.
    Actually the historical record is pretty clear on this.

    I wasn't referring to Johnny's instrument, which was made by John Bailey for John Pearse in 1963, and which Pearse gave to Johnny in 1967. Pearse had asked Bailey to build a replacement for his damaged Greek bouzouki, but Bailey refused to make a staved back, so Pearse took him an old Preston English Guitar to use as a model. So in the case of this particular instrument there is a connection between it and the historical English guitar.

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    It should be noted that this instrument was not conceived or built as an "Irish bouzouki" however much it resembles those that were. And it took Johnny retuning it to GDAD and playing Irish music on it to bring into that sphere. Pearse later said he had "unwittingly" introduced the Irish bouzouki but that is not really true (and he might have been joking).

    All the pioneering Irish musicians who played bouzouki started with Greek instruments and all of them except Alec Finn switched once alternatives were provided by instrument builders. The first Irish bouzouki to be conceived and built as such was the partially staved back one Peter Abnett built for Dónal Lunny in 1970. The English guitar/cittern influence on Abnett was limited to the decoration at the end of the headstock.

    Most of the supposed influence of the historical English guitar/cittern on the Irish bouzouki has been perceived after the fact and is based on observance of apparent similarities such as the "flat back" in spite of the fact that the first examples - Abnett's - were not flat-backed.

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    I have watched and participated in this discussion for over twenty years now, and I have a theory why these arguments are being made (having to do with competing socio-cultural identities) and I may write an article on it at some point. In the meantime it's interesting and fun to discuss the actual historical record here among friends.

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  14. #86
    Registered User zookster's Avatar
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    Default Re: Irish Bouzouki vs. Greek Bouzouki

    I'm with you guys, I always stick to fifths regardless of which instrument I am playing.

    With the Irish bouzouki, i have gone back and forth with the tone depending on whether I'm using Bushmills or Jamieson. Normally, with the Bushmills, the sound is somewhat better, but by the end of the night, it's hard to tell the difference.

    With the Greek bouzouki, I adhere strictly to ouzo, but I have to admit, in very short order the sound begins to deteriorate and the other session members become irritated. I did wind up in one woman's lap the other night, and that didn't help the tone, either.
    However, she did compliment me on my pirouette off of the makeshift platform where the session gathers. It took a while to retune the instrument from the sidewalk outside the main door, but fortunately, two pedestrians threw change into my case.

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  16. #87
    Registered User Mike Anderson's Avatar
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    Default Re: Irish Bouzouki vs. Greek Bouzouki

    Quote Originally Posted by zookster View Post
    I'm with you guys, I always stick to fifths regardless of which instrument I am playing.

    With the Irish bouzouki, i have gone back and forth with the tone depending on whether I'm using Bushmills or Jamieson. Normally, with the Bushmills, the sound is somewhat better, but by the end of the night, it's hard to tell the difference.

    With the Greek bouzouki, I adhere strictly to ouzo, but I have to admit, in very short order the sound begins to deteriorate and the other session members become irritated. I did wind up in one woman's lap the other night, and that didn't help the tone, either.
    However, she did compliment me on my pirouette off of the makeshift platform where the session gathers. It took a while to retune the instrument from the sidewalk outside the main door, but fortunately, two pedestrians threw change into my case.
    "But wasn't it all stupid nonsense, rot, gibberish, and criminally fraudulent nincompoopery?"
    - Neal Stephenson, Quicksilver

  17. #88
    Registered User Mike Anderson's Avatar
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    Default Re: Irish Bouzouki vs. Greek Bouzouki

    Here's one I've wondered about: Donal Lunny from a Youtube video. Could this be another Yairi, maybe completely one-off for Donal? Looks like he has a guitar in that same very unusual body style. Anyone who knows anything about his current instruments, I'm very curious.

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    "But wasn't it all stupid nonsense, rot, gibberish, and criminally fraudulent nincompoopery?"
    - Neal Stephenson, Quicksilver

  18. #89

    Default Re: Irish Bouzouki vs. Greek Bouzouki

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Anderson View Post
    Here's one I've wondered about: Donal Lunny from a Youtube video. Could this be another Yairi, maybe completely one-off for Donal? Looks like he has a guitar in that same very unusual body style. Anyone who knows anything about his current instruments, I'm very curious.

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    He has had that Yari guitar for a decade or more but that other pic sure looks like a gazuki, pretty cool

  19. #90
    Registered User Francis J's Avatar
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    Default Re: Irish Bouzouki vs. Greek Bouzouki

    I'm not sure where this might fit in to the present discussion, but the photo below is of me playing a bouzouki in 1975, 4 courses,Italian made instrument "Eko". Not a pioneering design, but just an illustration of the fluid nature of the development of the instrument, and it's use first in folk bands ( as distinct from Traditional groups) in Ireland.
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  21. #91
    Butcherer of Songs Rob Zamites's Avatar
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    Default Re: Irish Bouzouki vs. Greek Bouzouki

    Quote Originally Posted by Francis J View Post
    I'm not sure where this might fit in to the present discussion, but the photo below is of me playing a bouzouki in 1975, 4 courses,German(?) made instrument "Eko". Not a pioneering design, but just an illustration of the fluid nature of the development of the instrument, and it's use first in folk bands ( as distinct from Traditional groups) in Ireland.
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    What a handsome devil you are!
    =============================
    Apollonio Acousto-electric bouzouki (in shop)
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    "Doubt begins only at the last frontiers of what is possible." -- Ambrose Bierce

  22. #92
    Registered User Francis J's Avatar
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    Default Re: Irish Bouzouki vs. Greek Bouzouki

    Why thank you Rob, but it's "were" not "are" ! Nearly forty years of rain and wind have played havoc with the complexion, but still can do the devil when called on..

  23. #93
    Registered User Colin Lindsay's Avatar
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    Default Re: Irish Bouzouki vs. Greek Bouzouki

    Quote Originally Posted by Francis J View Post
    I'm not sure where this might fit in to the present discussion, but the photo below is of me playing a bouzouki in 1975, 4 courses,Italian made instrument "Eko". Not a pioneering design, but just an illustration of the fluid nature of the development of the instrument, and it's use first in folk bands ( as distinct from Traditional groups) in Ireland.
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    Same as mine!! Cost me £40 if I remember rightly, but bought straight off the shelf of a local music shop. Seems like we were all playing them, as anything else was just too hard to find, or too expensive….
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    "Danger! Do Not Touch!" must be one of the scariest things to read in Braille....

  24. #94
    Registered User zoukboy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Irish Bouzouki vs. Greek Bouzouki

    Colin and Francis:

    I'd be very interested in when you each took up the Greek bouzouki and what inspired you to do that.

    Thanks! :-)

  25. #95

    Default Re: Irish Bouzouki vs. Greek Bouzouki

    Quote Originally Posted by Colin Lindsay View Post
    Same as mine!! Cost me £40 if I remember rightly, but bought straight off the shelf of a local music shop. Seems like we were all playing them, as anything else was just too hard to find, or too expensive….
    I had one that cost me £36 pounds mid 70's. Planxty was all the rage but we also covered a few Cat Stevens and Joni Mitchell numbers on it. The first two tunes I learned on it were The Blacksmith and Merrily Kissed the Quaker - but in Greek Tuning.

  26. #96
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    Default Re: Irish Bouzouki vs. Greek Bouzouki

    Did anyone cop on to that odd-looking split saddle in the second Donal Lunny pic? It's compensated under the B string as per usual but the split then favours the two lowest bass strings. Almost like an upside-down Lowden/Takamine arrangement.

    Sorry for the non-bouzouki query but I'm mystified by that...

    Paul

  27. #97
    Registered User Nick Gellie's Avatar
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    Default Re: Irish Bouzouki vs. Greek Bouzouki

    I originally had a 22" Rick Westerman Irish bouzouki back in 1981. The neck split but I repaired it with wood glue and it was fine after that. I also had a 4-course Greek bouzouki bought in some underground Greek Bouzouki shop in Sydney in 1985. Of course the neck bowed eventually and I got a 3-course Greek Bouzouki from a shop in Brunswick in 1989. The neck bowed similarly bowed after three years.

    in 1995 I had a custom-ordered Greek from a fantastic luthier in South Australia called George Stasinopolous. Here is his website http://www.bouzoukimaker.com/index.html - he makes fantastic Greek bouzoukis, as good as anyone back in Greece. I set it up as DGAD. It was a great instrument with natural walnut for the back and plain soundboard on the front. It had a laminated neck so no neck bowing as a result. I sold to a Greek bloke in Sydney who was wanting to start playing Greek Bouzouki. I then ordered a 3-course version of the Greek Bouzouki from him - same plane walnut staved back and laminated neck. I sold it to a really Greek bouzouki player in Melbourne who wanted to play traditional Greek tunes and songs on it. He already had a 4-course Greek bouzouki for playing Rembetika music.

    I have since gone back to the Irish Bouzouki because although i like playing Greek music, I did not have the time to develop adept skilled playing on the Greek Bouzouki in the Greek style. The Irish Bouzouki is my compromise between playing Balkan and Celtic music. So like Roger I have been looking for an Irish Bouzouki that has that Greek sound. I really appreciate his efforts to get Herb Taylor to build a three piece staved back bouzouki that has the tonal attributes of a Greek Bouzouki.

    I gather that most cafe members and perhaps visitors to the cafe are looking for that right blend in an Irish Bouzouki. Now that Peter Abnett has retired from making instruments, there is an opening for luthiers around the world to make staved-back Irish bouzoukis. Herb Taylor is already down that path in the USA. Joe Foley in Ireland has made them in the past but his flat backed bouzoukis are great sounding instruments. Maybe we need a luthier in Australia to make similar instruments. In many ways this approach is really exciting new ground for the development of the Irish Bouzouki.
    Last edited by Nick Gellie; Jan-08-2015 at 3:42pm. Reason: Tidy up post
    Nic Gellie

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  29. #98
    Registered User DavidKOS's Avatar
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    Default Re: Irish Bouzouki vs. Greek Bouzouki

    Quote Originally Posted by Francis J View Post
    although i like playing Greek music, I did not have the time to develop adept skilled playing on the Greek Bouzouki in the Greek style.
    Although I really appreciate what you guys have done with the instrument, it seems not too many of us around here play "Greek Bouzouki in the Greek style". Am I wrong?

  30. #99
    Registered User zoukboy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Irish Bouzouki vs. Greek Bouzouki

    Quote Originally Posted by Eddie Sheehy View Post
    I had one that cost me £36 pounds mid 70's. Planxty was all the rage but we also covered a few Cat Stevens and Joni Mitchell numbers on it. The first two tunes I learned on it were The Blacksmith and Merrily Kissed the Quaker - but in Greek Tuning.
    Thanks, Eddie. Do you know the year you bought it?

  31. #100
    Registered User zoukboy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Irish Bouzouki vs. Greek Bouzouki

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidKOS View Post
    Although I really appreciate what you guys have done with the instrument, it seems not too many of us around here play "Greek Bouzouki in the Greek style". Am I wrong?
    I have in the past but don't now. I found I preferred to play Greek music on either oud, lavta, or laouto.

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