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Thread: OM Scale Lengths

  1. #1

    Default OM Scale Lengths

    There's seems to be a pretty big difference in scale lengths for OM.
    I have a 23" scale one, not for any particularly reason; that's just what the instrument i picked up happened to have.
    I'm a beginner OM player.
    As I improve, i look at other OM's and wonder if a 23" scale is a good fit for me.
    Maybe a shorter one would be easier to play, particularly reaching the 7th fret.
    But do shorter scale lengths carry a different sound and resonance?
    Or maybe a shorter one would be more difficult to fit in my (banjo) hard case?

  2. #2

    Default Re: OM Scale Lengths

    Longer scale length generally translates to access to heavier gauge strings, which can produce a fuller sound. It also can have more resonance.

    Longer scale length also makes melody/lead playing a bit more of a challenge. You have to stretch the fingers to hit the notes.

    I graduated from a Trinity College Bozouki (bigger scale length, and a very fine instrument) to a Herb Taylor OM (shorter scale length, a sweetheart) and I am very happy I learned melody and OM theory on the bigger scales. That made transitioning to my current OM a breeze and made dipping into Mandocello easier as well.

    The new instrument definitely sounds different than my first, but that is not just because of scale length.

    As for the case, a shorter scale length instrument will in theory be smaller in general. If your current OM fits, and if you purchase a similar shaped, shorter scaled instrument, I do not see why it could not fit!

    Hope this helps

  3. #3
    Registered User Simon DS's Avatar
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    Default Re: OM Scale Lengths

    All else being equal (except for string weight and scale length), then as the scale length gets longer the strings have to get lighter to have the octave of a GDAe mandolin.

    For example you can put the strings of a 20 inch octave onto a 23 inch octave but the tension is going to be a lot higher if you want it to play octave GDAE.
    Last edited by Simon DS; Jun-01-2023 at 5:56pm.

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    Registered User PT66's Avatar
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    Default Re: OM Scale Lengths

    Here is my 2 cents worth. At any given scale length lighter strings tuned to standard pitch and tuning will yield less tension. The compromise of less tension is easier fingering but maybe less volume.

    For any given string gauge set a shorter scale will give you less tension (see above for the effect of less tension).

    For any given string gauge set a longer scale will give you more tension which can mean more volume but harder to play.

    More tension also means more stress on the instrument.

    In my opinion if you feel a shorter scale would fit your hand better, get one with a shorter scale. Then put strings on that are slightly heavier than what you had on the long scale to achieve the same tension.
    Dave Schneider

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    Default Re: OM Scale Lengths

    I started playing OM on a very nice Mendel which had about a 22.5" scale. I've since switched to a Weber Bitterroot F20 OM w/ 20" scale. I found that standard OM strings did NOT work well on the Weber, which require a heaver G string. That said, in my limited experience, is that you give up some of the low end fullness, but gain an easier instrument to get around on, when you go from longer to shorter scale.
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    Default Re: OM Scale Lengths

    Shorter scale length will give you an instrument that is easier to play, but you loose tone, especially on the G string, so it is always a compromise. As the scale length gets shorter, the G string sounds more "thuddy" when fretted. Ideally you want the same tension on the strings regardless of scale length to give the best tone, so shorter scale lengths do need thicker strings. The tension should be roughly the same for all scale lengths, so some of the info above is misleading. I have built 21inch, 22inch and 23inch and I think 22inch is a good compromise, but personally as mostly a mandolin player, I do prefer playing the 21inch.
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  8. #7
    Registered User PT66's Avatar
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    Default Re: OM Scale Lengths

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    Mine is 21 3/4 inch scale. Light gauge strings because the top is very lightly braced. I like the tone and the sustain goes on forever.
    Dave Schneider

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    Registered User foldedpath's Avatar
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    Default Re: OM Scale Lengths

    I believe from experience that the following things are true, assuming you're using an appropriate string gauge for the scale of your instrument, which is the tricky part. I think most of us who go into the OM world for any time realize that you may not be able to use standard packaged string sets, you have to find what works for you.

    For what it's worth, I play a Weber Yellowstone F-style OM with a 22" scale.

    The longer the scale length with appropriate string gauges, the better the sustain. If you value the difference in sustain in an OM over a mandolin, the ability to really "milk" the sustain with a longer scale is an advantage. I already have a mandolin I use in Irish trad sessions for the fast jigs and reels. The OM "speaks" more slowly, not as easy to play fast, so I use it for the slower tunes. Airs, marches, "slow reels" where long sustain enhances the tunes.

    Don't be afraid to use a capo on a longer scale OM. I have fairly large hands so I can play these tunes in first position, but I'm not averse to throwing a capo on for chord-melody arrangements in odd keys for Irish trad like Gm or F#m.

    Finally, for what it's worth, I met Bruce Weber last year when I took my Weber OM to his shop in Montana for a refret job. We talked about OMs, and his opinion was that the 22" scale was the ideal length for an OM, the best way to get the most out of the instrument. You don't get the same sustain with a shorter scale.

    Your mileage may vary. We don't all have the same size hands, and a shorter scale does facilitate easier fingering on the faster tunes when you're playing melody instead of chordal backup.
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    Registered User vwfye's Avatar
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    Default Re: OM Scale Lengths

    I played a 22" scale Tenor as an octave, then had built a 19" OM using the same hardware, literally. The tenor was a bit, but not much, fuller sound. The OM is much more comfortable to play with my stubby fingers.
    Conclusion: either is fine. Play what feels more comfortable as you will play it more frequently...
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    Default Re: OM Scale Lengths

    I've only played a few octaves, but I will guess that the build type will influence tone, projection, and sustain in the same ways as it does for similarly built mandolins, mandolas, and guitars.

    My experience has been that archtop instruments with f-holes are likely to be more percussive, and if well built, will tend to be the loudest instruments. They don't tend have the best sustaining qualities.

    Archtops with round or oval holes are more likely to have better sustaining qualities. They will tend to be somewhat less percussive, and not quite as loud.

    Flat-top instruments tend to have the best sustaining qualities. But they will generally have less volume than archtop instruments.

    It's a trade-off. Do you want loud and percussive, or do you want the best sustaining qualities? You probably won't get the best of both in one instrument.

    Some of the earlier responses suggest that longer scales may enhance sustaining qualities. I haven't played enough octaves to have formed an opinion about that. I suppose that if someone wanted the most sustain out of a carved instrument, they could try stringing a 24"+ scale instrument for GDAE tuning, but it would be a bear to play tunes on. And I don't know whether it would yield good results or not. I like shorter scales, so that's an experiment I'll leave to others.

    My humble little Regal Octofone flat top with 21" inch scale may not be the loudest instrument around, but it's loud enough for me. And it's comfortable to play, and it will sustain a note long enough to go around the corner for a cup of coffee. Anyone who is curious about them should know that they're lightly built and should be handled gently, strung lightly, and will usually need a bit of work to get them into good playing condition.

    If I wanted the power of an archtop and still wanted reasonably good sustaining qualities, I would probably look for something with a round or oval soundhole. But for now, I'm content with the old Regal.
    Last edited by rcc56; Jun-02-2023 at 2:50am.

  13. #11
    Registered User PT66's Avatar
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    Default Re: OM Scale Lengths

    I have often thought about building a replica Octofone. Any plans out there.
    Dave Schneider

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    Default Re: OM Scale Lengths

    Unlike guitars, there are very few places you can go and try out half a dozen different octave mandolins to see what fits. Certainly not where I live. That’s why I build my own.
    Dave Schneider

  15. #13
    Registered User urobouros's Avatar
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    Default Re: OM Scale Lengths

    I have a 20" scale Gallatin OM, a 21.5" scale Pono OM & a 22" scale Northfield OM and find the longer scale has both more sustain & low end. The shorter scale is easier to chord with & the shorter sustain makes it sound and feel more like a standard mandolin. The Pono & Northfield are both flattop GBOMs which give them more of a guitar feel & tone but even the 1/2" difference in scale makes a noticeable difference in tone & feel. The Pono has a snappier attack but it also has a 12th fret neck joint vs a 14th fret neck joint on the Northfield which also makes a difference. It really comes down to what music you play and how you play it.
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  16. #14
    Registered User PT66's Avatar
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    Default Re: OM Scale Lengths

    I would say the difference you are hearing between the Pono and the Northfield is more due to the 12 vs. 14 then the 1/2” scale difference. The 12 fret neck probably is putting the bridge closer to the sweet spot in the center of the lower bout.
    Dave Schneider

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    Default Re: OM Scale Lengths

    another 23in Bruce Weber OM here. Sage-1 pancake. agree with everything that was said. good scale length (same as pretty much all guitars). good tone and sustain. long search for "perfect" strings (settled on Thomastic "GB" flatwounds). Only thing I disagree is that shorter scale OM is necessarily easier to play. It is a guitar-sized instrument, one should not come to it from a small mandolin and complain that it is bigger. Of course it is bigger, bigger is better. I wish more people would teach octave mandolin technique, but there is enough youtube videos of good players, for a persistent person to learn all the ropes (hint: play more flat keys, Dm, F, Gm).

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    Default Re: OM Scale Lengths

    Quote Originally Posted by PT66 View Post
    I have often thought about building a replica Octofone. Any plans out there.
    None that I know of.
    If you pm me, I could send you a rough tracing with approximate brace and soundhole locations.

    But it's not bigger, so I guess it's not better.

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    Default Re: OM Scale Lengths

    Quote Originally Posted by rcc56 View Post
    But it's not bigger, so I guess it's not better.
    but it could be louder, could have nice tone, could be pretty to look at, could have very low action, could fit on the back seat of a NYC taxi. many different better out there. ObSmile.

  20. #18
    Registered User zoukboy's Avatar
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    Default Re: OM Scale Lengths

    Quote Originally Posted by Bluey View Post
    There's seems to be a pretty big difference in scale lengths for OM.
    I have a 23" scale one, not for any particularly reason; that's just what the instrument i picked up happened to have.
    I'm a beginner OM player.
    As I improve, i look at other OM's and wonder if a 23" scale is a good fit for me.
    Maybe a shorter one would be easier to play, particularly reaching the 7th fret.
    But do shorter scale lengths carry a different sound and resonance?
    Or maybe a shorter one would be more difficult to fit in my (banjo) hard case?
    Try playing yours with a capo on the first and/or second frets and see if the shorter scale really works for you (everyone's physiology is different). If you like the shorter scale it's a simple matter to tune down (F#C#G#D# for one fret or FCGD for two) so you're at standard pitch with the capo on. Depending whether you tune down a one or two frets, you may have to use slightly heavier strings to get the same response.

  21. #19
    Registered User Mandobart's Avatar
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    Default Re: OM Scale Lengths

    Beware of broad generalization and oversimplification.

    Scale length is only one variable in tone. Body depth plays a huge role, as do different tone woods, but ultimately its the builder that gives you the tone. Build attributes like flat top and back vs carved, carved vs induced arch, f hole vs round or oval, etc. will affect tone as well.

    Scale length figures a lot into playability , but also nut width, string spacing and neck shape make a big difference.

    And for a given pitch, a longer scale length requires smaller gage strings (not heavier) if you want to maintain the same tension.

    My 21" western red cedar topped Cricketfiddle F4 style OM has a very deep, warm tone with great sustain. My 21" F5 Michael Kelly Octave plus doesn't sound at all similar, even with the same strings.

    My 25" 10 string F4 style Cricketfiddle mandocello highest 4 string courses are the same as an OM, but with a 3-1/2" deep body and redwood top it sounds different than any other instrument I've ever heard.

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  23. #20
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    Default Re: OM Scale Lengths

    I play a lot of Irish trad so my primary instrument is a mandolin, but I built a 26" scale bouzouki carved top oval hole and discovered quickly that it is pretty much impossible to keep up with fast melodies but it is a wonderful instrument for rythem and vocal backup. I also built 2 GBOM's with 22" scale, carved tops and F holes. They both have a lot of sustain, but don't sound quite as full in the bass as the 26' instrument. It is also a gymnastic exercise to keep up with tunes on them, but it is possible if the pace is reasonable.
    One thing I can add to this conversation is to take advantage of the natural characteristics of the instrument. Use a lot of partial chords and double stops to bring out the sustain which is where its real beauty lies.

    I am currently building 2 identical flat top OM's and will probably make one with 22" and one with 21" to see how much difference it will make, but by the time they are finished, this thread will be well back in the archives.
    Bob Schmidt

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    Registered User PT66's Avatar
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    Default Re: OM Scale Lengths

    Bob, will you configure the neck so that the bridge sets in the same location on both instruments? My experience shows that bridge location is a big factor.
    Dave Schneider

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    Default Re: OM Scale Lengths

    Yes, that is my plan. I want to put the bridge in the optimum spot. The necks will be the length needed to make the scale length, so the body intersect will be different for each.
    Bob Schmidt

  26. #23

    Default Re: OM Scale Lengths

    Ok some interesting replies here.
    Here's a follow up question:
    Assuming GDAE tuning and playing Irish melody: how FAR of a leap is it from the high A on the 5th fret Estring, to the high B (7th fret)?

    I have a 23" scale and i probably only hit this high B somewhat cleanly, less than 50% of the time.
    And that edge of my OM neck and fretboard is showing signs of physical wear.

    That's really why i'm even thinking of a smaller instrument.
    But presuming i got a 21" scale OM in future, would it even make much difference in the jump to high B?


    Measuring center of 5th fret to center of 7th fret is 2 inches, which seems like nothing until you actually try it.
    Last edited by Bluey; Jun-28-2023 at 11:02am.

  27. #24
    two t's and one hyphen fatt-dad's Avatar
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    Default Re: OM Scale Lengths

    I put the d'Adderio mandola set on my Eastman. It's about 21 inches.

    I love my Eastman mdo-305! It's been a perfect companion on my start on OM.

    f-d
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    Default Re: OM Scale Lengths

    If you've got a capo around, try tuning yours down a step or two and capoing on 1 or 2. That will give you a shorter scale feel, to see if it helps with that 5 to 7 jump!

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