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Thread: Are there tenors (CGDA) built for gut/nylon strings (not ukes!)?

  1. #1

    Default Are there tenors (CGDA) built for gut/nylon strings (not ukes!)?

    I'm still in the decision making stage of what instrument to start with. I am considering the idea of buying an instrument tuned CGDA that sounds like your stereotypical classical guitar.

    I know some people put nylon strings on banjos (indeed all stringed instruments were built for gut stings) but that would just sound like an ukulele, which I abhor.

    Or I could possibly restring an ordinary tenor with nylon strings but then the tension will be too low.

    Does anybody know of any tenor guitars that are specifically built for nylon/gut strings which is not just an oversized ukulele?

    There would be a Thomann Tenor Guitar Standard but this comes with a ADGB tuning.

    Or am I wasting time and chasing shadows?

  2. #2
    Registered User PT66's Avatar
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    Default Re: Are there tenors (CGDA) built for gut/nylon strings (not ukes

    I would guess that having one built my be your only option. 4 nylon strings is going to sound kind of uke-ish no matter what tuning you use.
    Dave Schneider

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    Default Re: Are there tenors (CGDA) built for gut/nylon strings (not ukes

    I don't know of any with CGDA tuning.

    Red Valley Mandolins makes a 4 string nylon string mandolin, and Gryphon Strings in Palo Alto has one in stock.

    Judging from a video I looked at some time ago, the sound is pretty good.
    Hope this helps. Jim
    Jim


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  5. #4

    Default Re: Are there tenors (CGDA) built for gut/nylon strings (not ukes

    Also note that the high A of CGDA tuning is close to the limit for steel strings. You might find that there is no usable nylon A string (ie they all break before you get up to the A).

    A little searching revealed that .018 nylon (thinnest regularly available gauge) might tune up to A at 23 inch scale but is unpleasantly high tension and might not last long. Fluorocarbon fishing line would be worth a try, using something a bit thinner (but thinner = weaker).

    DGAE is achievable with nylon strings though.

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  7. #5

    Default Re: Are there tenors (CGDA) built for gut/nylon strings (not ukes

    Quote Originally Posted by PT66 View Post
    4 nylon strings is going to sound kind of uke-ish no matter what tuning you use.
    Ew!

  8. #6
    Registered User fox's Avatar
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    Default Re: Are there tenors (CGDA) built for gut/nylon strings (not ukes

    Yes there are classical tenor guitars available, the one you linked has a very wide neck that might be ok for you if you are coming from a six string background but, otherwise may be quite difficult to play?
    Yes you can use higher tension nylon strings on a standard tenor guitar, you may get mixed opinions about the result!
    CGDA is not the easiest to string with nylon, GDAE is also a 5th tuning and a very popular choice for tenor guitars and is a bit easier to string with nylon.
    There are two main scale lengths 21” and 23” I think the shorted scale will be better for high A tuning.
    Finally look dow the page or try the search button as there are some nylon strung tenors featured ….

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  10. #7

    Default Re: Are there tenors (CGDA) built for gut/nylon strings (not ukes

    Quote Originally Posted by ProfChris View Post
    Also note that the high A of CGDA tuning is close to the limit for steel strings. You might find that there is no usable nylon A string (ie they all break before you get up to the A).

    A little searching revealed that .018 nylon (thinnest regularly available gauge) might tune up to A at 23 inch scale but is unpleasantly high tension and might not last long. Fluorocarbon fishing line would be worth a try, using something a bit thinner (but thinner = weaker).

    DGAE is achievable with nylon strings though.
    Thanks. What about I slapped these strings:
    https://www.thomann.de/gb/aquila_new...le_set_31u.htm

    onto this guitar:
    https://www.thomann.de/gb/thomann_te...r_standard.htm

    Bear in mind, this guitar seems to be 21 Frets and scale: 57.5 cm (22.6"). Possibly bigger than a standard tenor?

  11. #8
    Registered User fox's Avatar
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    Default Re: Are there tenors (CGDA) built for gut/nylon strings (not ukes

    In fact only a few post down we have this…. https://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/t...-gauge-strings

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    Registered User fox's Avatar
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    Default Re: Are there tenors (CGDA) built for gut/nylon strings (not ukes

    I cant remember the manufactures of classical tenors but there are a few ….
    Also bear in mind that Tenor guitars are not high tension instruments by design, the strings are not as long as a six string but the tension is quite a bit lower.
    As a rule we use strings with around 20lbs of tension each but 18-22 is good.
    So with the aid of a string tension calculator you can work out your own string gauges.
    Last edited by fox; May-30-2023 at 12:31pm.

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    Registered User Seonachan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Are there tenors (CGDA) built for gut/nylon strings (not ukes

    Pono makes a Baritone Nui ("big baritone") for nylon strings, normally DGBE but if you can get CGDA to work on it, it might be your best bet, as it's about the size of a Martin 0 tenor (23" scale, 13 5/8" lower bout). Southcoast Strings used to make a nylon-strung tenor, I think with similar dimensions - the owner passed away several years ago and they're no longer made, but you might find one floating about.


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  16. #11

    Default Re: Are there tenors (CGDA) built for gut/nylon strings (not ukes

    Quote Originally Posted by fox View Post
    In fact only a few post down we have this…. https://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/t...-gauge-strings
    But that is self built.

  17. #12

    Default Re: Are there tenors (CGDA) built for gut/nylon strings (not ukes

    That sounds really nice but it's way over my budget.

  18. #13

    Default Re: Are there tenors (CGDA) built for gut/nylon strings (not ukes

    Quote Originally Posted by fox View Post
    I cant remember the manufactures of classical tenors but there are a few ….
    Also bear in mind that Tenor guitars are not high tension instruments by design, the strings are not as long as a six string but the tension is quite a bit lower.
    As a rule we use strings with around 20lbs of tension each but 18-22 is good.
    Thanks. How loose would these strings:
    https://www.thomann.de/gb/pyramid_ny...ar_strings.htm
    feel on a standard tenor built for steel strings?
    Quote Originally Posted by fox View Post
    So with the aid of a string tension calculator you can work out your own string gauges.
    Is there one online?

  19. #14
    Registered User fox's Avatar
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    Default Re: Are there tenors (CGDA) built for gut/nylon strings (not ukes

    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaPastaCannoli View Post
    But that is self built.
    Yes but the point was to show you the hybrid strings that can be used on any tenor guitar.

  20. #15
    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: Are there tenors (CGDA) built for gut/nylon strings (not ukes

    I don’t understand why there is a prohibition on ukes. Baritone ukes have 19 inch scales which is ideal for what you want and there should be plenty of those around given that ukes are so popular. And you could get a lower priced decent one to try out without spending tons of money. Why re-invent the wheel. Just saying…
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  22. #16

    Default Re: Are there tenors (CGDA) built for gut/nylon strings (not ukes

    Ondrej's "ukecello" may just be the ticket: https://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/t...ele-conversion
    It is fairly far removed from ukulele sounding at that point I would say. Look for a baritone with a solid top.

  23. #17

    Default Re: Are there tenors (CGDA) built for gut/nylon strings (not ukes

    Vintage Classical Tenor Guitar - modded for Eddy Davis $1,250

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Not Mine - No Financial Interest

    https://reverb.com/item/68048796-vin...for-eddy-davis

    Ad copy:

    Here’s a one of a kind “classical tenor guitar”. It started out life as a Requinto which is sort of like a 1/2 size classical guitar - tuned one forth higher and used in guitar orchestras.

    Joel Eckhaus of “Earnest Instruments” converted it to a sort of classical tenor guitar by trimming the board and doing a scarf joint to the headstock to shorten it for 4 strings and reshaping and refinishing the neck. He filled the gaps from the previously wider fretboard in the top with ebony. He did a masterful job and it was done for Eddy Davis. Eddy Davis is inlaid into the headstock.

    Eddy was a phenomenal tenor banjo player (played in Woody Allen’s trad jazz band and with Vince Giordano) and apparently he had a long-standing gig at a Spanish restaurant and had this made for that application.

    At one time it had a pickup installed but the jack has been removed (near the endpin) and it’s been rather crudely plugged with rosewood. There are repaired (and splined) cracks. It’s light as a feather. But I’ve had it and recorded and played out with it for the past maybe 15 years and it’s been a solid reliable player. Eddy had steel banjo strings on it when I got it. I have nylon and classical guitar strings on it. Think Willie Nelson - totally. It works great for playing lead like Willy. Sadly Eddy passed away early from Covid. I tune it like an octave mandolin.. it has a 21.5” scale length and comes in its original nicer that it sounds cardboard case."

    Cheers

  24. #18

    Default Re: Are there tenors (CGDA) built for gut/nylon strings (not ukes

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Garber View Post
    I don’t understand why there is a prohibition on ukes.
    I'll have to eat humble pie and review my stance. Maybe because I don't like uke players I met in real life. Plenty of very bad uke buskers here in Brum high street.

  25. #19
    Registered User PT66's Avatar
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    Default Re: Are there tenors (CGDA) built for gut/nylon strings (not ukes

    Don’t condemn the instrument because of a few players. If everyone did that based on my musical abilities all string instruments would be on the trash heap. I feel my building success has always been better than my playing. Every time I go to practice I end up in the shop building something else. That’s been true for 60 years.
    Dave Schneider

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  27. #20
    coprolite mandroid's Avatar
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    Question Re: Are there tenors (CGDA) built for gut/nylon strings (not ukes

    Just because it ships in one tuning DGBE ... 'Chicago' in Tenor Banjo/Guitar circles ...
    doesn't require it be left like that ...

    Is your Transposition thinking flexible enough for other 5th relationships FCGD, EBF# C# for example?
    to pitch the strings for tension feel rather than requiring concert Viola/Cello tuning?
    fingering chords same, just the names differ the same named chords being elsewhere on the fingerboard.



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  28. #21

    Default Re: Are there tenors (CGDA) built for gut/nylon strings (not ukes

    As of yesterday this Eddy Davis classical tenor still is available. I had thought about buying it but other financial needs...The seller is willing to make an audio or video so you could listen and judge for yourself. Joel Eckhaus is a fine luthier and Eddy Davis was a terrific tenor banjo player. Its been in good hands.

  29. #22
    Registered User john bange's Avatar
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    Default Re: Are there tenors (CGDA) built for gut/nylon strings (not ukes

    pono nui is also available with 8 strings...I love mine
    Pono Bn4-1/Bn8-1 4&8 string. lattice braced tenor guitars
    Republic Hwy49 resonator tenor guitar/Regal(Harmony) tenor guitar
    Kerry Char baritone uke/Heritage baritone uke
    Kamaka baritone uke/Martin baritone uke
    Primrose baritone uke/Kelali baritone uke
    Harmony baritone uke/Burke baritone uke
    Hoyt custom 10" baritone banjo/ukulele
    Ode/Hoyt custom 11" model 33, 19 fret tenor banjo

  30. #23

    Default Re: Are there tenors (CGDA) built for gut/nylon strings (not ukes

    I built a "big baritone" as a prototype to develop this idea. It has a 20" scale and I experimented with several different tunings and went through a lot of strings to finally settle on EAC#F# as the tuning. CGDA is really difficult because of the high A, and GDAE doesn't work well with that scale length, so I abandoned 5ths tuning.
    EAC#F# has the best balance of volume, tone, and intonation for this size body and scale length. I'm thinking a future version of this will have ~22" scale (with 13 frets clear of the body) which should add more tension improving further tone and volume. I've had this completed for a year and 1/2 and barely played until I found the sweet spot in regards to tuning and string selection, and now it's become my favorite.
    I think something around 23" scale could work for GDAE but I don't think I'll mess around with CGDA again unless it's steel string.
    Disclaimer: I chose to build this as a prototype with speed in mind rather than aesthetics, FWIW. I even used cherry on the sides because I couldn't figure out how to get Meranti bent without cracking!
    Click image for larger version. 

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  31. #24
    Registered User fox's Avatar
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    Default Re: Are there tenors (CGDA) built for gut/nylon strings (not ukes

    Hey Brett, we have thrashed out this subject many a time … GDAE in nylon is pretty easy and sounds good, CGDA is quite possible but the sound is not everybody's cup of tea!

  32. #25

    Default Re: Are there tenors (CGDA) built for gut/nylon strings (not ukes

    Quote Originally Posted by fox View Post
    Hey Brett, we have thrashed out this subject many a time … GDAE in nylon is pretty easy and sounds good, CGDA is quite possible but the sound is not everybody's cup of tea!
    Right. The high A is possible but with diminishing returns.

    Understanding this has been covered I'm just trying to point out that there ARE builders besides Pono (me) pursuing this intentionally versus converting something that already exists with less than stellar results.

    For further clarification, I was not in the world of ukuleles nor tenor guitar/mandolin until a few years ago, so no I'm not aware of all the discussions that have taken place nor the instruments on the market. I had never heard of the Pono Nui until after I had made mine.

    Is Pono still making them? Doesn't seem like it.

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