Tuners needed for Washburn bowlback style 225

[Joe Bartl]

I put a want ad in the Classifieds, but thought it might help to repeat it here:



I recently acquired a Style 225 Washburn bowlback mandolin which came to me in museum quality condition ... I thought ... until I tuned it up to find that the tuner for the final E string didn't work -- the common devil, a cracked cog. So I need a replacement. My luthier tried a fix from Frets.com, but was not successful. So I need either a whole set or the plate for the treble side (space between tuners must be ⅞th inch), or, somehow, the single tuner for the last E string. Thanks.

[Jim Garber]

I can check my pile but in the meantime you might want to take a photo with the back plate removed to see what the routing is like and what the originals look like. Most people who might have collected tuners may not know which brand it was originally on. Also are you sure they are 7/8” (.875”) center to center?

[Richard500]

Ford’s pin repair for a broken gear is interesting, pretty finicky, but doesn’t keep the gear from splitting further. Even, as in his demo, if the gear is pressed onto the post and therefore not easily removable, once cracked it should come off readily. A careful braze with low temperature silver solder and a visual touch up with a file should be better. The cog can then be carefully pressed back on the post in situ. If necessary, clean up the post end first if it’s mushroomed.
A gear that is retained by a screw is even easier as there’s no danger of re-splitting it. A jeweler, rather than a luthier is the go-to for a good braze.
That said, old brass can be weak to start with, and can also get weaker with time, so success is not guaranteed.
Also, these things are not precision items in any sense, so a substitute of similar diameter and bore from a hell box should work as well.

[Jim Garber]

The one Washburn I had had rivets attaching the cog one of which did not work.

BTW what is that brass socket thing on the headstock and what would screw in there?

[Joe Bartl]

So, my luthier has come up with a fix though he doesn't promise it will last indefinitely. I'll find out more when I pick it up.

If the fix fails, Richard500, I'll attempt to remove the cog -- though, like Jim's, it uses rivets, not screws -- and bring to my jeweler.

Jim, I cannot take a picture because the instrument is still with the luthier (who provided me the measurement). However, it looks exactly the same as a picture you once posted of 225 gears:



As for the screwy bracket attached to the front, I speculate that someone screwed that on as, well, maybe some sort of strap attachment? Obviously not original to the instrument.

[rcc56]

I'll mention that it might be possible to drill out the rivet on a good cog, then tap it and install a machine screw.

[brunello97]

Jim, I cannot take a picture because the instrument is still with the luthier (who provided me the measurement). However, it looks exactly the same as a picture you once posted of 225 gears:

Joe, I am reading your post at work and out of the corner of my eye I read "..exactly the same as the picture you posed 225 years (ago)."

I know we've all been here awhile.....

I'll check my box of stray tuners when I get home. I've had numerous Washburn / L&H mandos move through the corral and hopefully there's something of use.

Mick

[Joe Bartl]

rcc56, Right, drilling out the rivet was the first thought we had, but my luthier wanted to avoid that if possible.

Mick, I sure appreciate your checking. Thanks!

[PT66]

Is there a market for rebuilding old tuning machines? As a retired machinist it might be business to investigate.

[brunello97]

rcc56, Right, drilling out the rivet was the first thought we had, but my luthier wanted to avoid that if possible.

Mick, I sure appreciate your checking. Thanks!

Joe, I've got a fair number of the drop in tuners with the attached split covers rather than the separate one piece cover on yours.
They might drop in if the cover plate is removed.
Spacing seems to be 15/16" on all of them, though.

My only active L+H bowls, a Washburn and an AC, have surface mounted and split cover inset tuners respectively so I've got no way to check the fit.

Let me know if I can send a photo.

Mick

[Richard500]

Is there a market for rebuilding old tuning machines? As a retired machinist it might be business to investigate.

Sure, there’s a market, but the kicker is that it’s not only very small, but involves a lot of research and setup costs. From reading threads here, players are not devoted to originality on the mechanical parts, and in fact, like replacement for supposedly better function in both tuners and tailpieces. Collectors may like original parts, but may not care about function. Once in a while, someone wants a reproduction button, but that’s a material and setup problem to address one at a time. Often, tuners work badly because of the installation, not the parts, and without the mandolin in hand, you’d be risking bad reviews almost every time. There are and were many designs, and changes during production, so each job turns into, again, a unique setup that properly needs to be documented for the next repair, perhaps years later.
In terms of equipment, the usual home setup of a small lathe, mill, furnace, torch, has to be augmented with things like hobs and maybe a plating setup unless you can afford to substitute finicky hand work.
So, if you can get a quantity order for the same model tuner, and no rush for delivery, you might be able to compete with new replacements or used parts.

[Joe Bartl]

Thanks, again, everyone ... especially Mick who found some possible replacements. As it turns out, my luthier used a cog from a different incomplete set and it seems to be working fine. It is now strung up and ready for a little Bach, Bacharach, and Beatles. If the E string tuner fails on Bwv 1006, Mick, I'll be back to you in a heartbeat.

[Jeff Mando]

Is there a market for rebuilding old tuning machines? As a retired machinist it might be business to investigate.

I think there is, if you don't mind working for almost nothing. Or, if it is a hobby or pay it forward type of thing. My experience is that musicians are cheap in certain circumstances. And, often, downright broke!

That is, many will pay $5000 for an instrument, but will squeal at paying $200 for a repair. Let's say it takes 4 hours to dig through a junk parts box, find a suitable cog/gear, figure out how to make it fit securely, drill, file, grind, tap, etc. People don't like paying $50 bucks an hour to fix a 25 cent cog.....IMHO. They don't realize who is doing who the favor.....

Last week, a guy called me about a broken peghead on a $500 acoustic guitar. I quoted him $100 and thought he was going to have a heart attack. $100 was the "friend" price. He ended up saying he was going to try wood glue and a C clamp. I said no problem, go for it. No telling how it turned out....

[Sue Rieter]

... Last week, a guy called me about a broken peghead on a $500 acoustic guitar. I quoted him $100 and thought he was going to have a heart attack. $100 was the "friend" price. He ended up saying he was going to try wood glue and a C clamp. I said no problem, go for it. No telling how it turned out....

Umm, I'm guessing not as well as he'd hoped. (People who know what they're talking about seem to grumble regularly about the unregulated use of wood glue.)

My take is, if you care about your instruments, have them fixed right. If you don't care so much, well, YMMV.