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Thread: “Simple et belle” by Ernest-Louis Patierno

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    Default “Simple et belle” by Ernest-Louis Patierno

    This is my arrangement of “Simple et belle” (Simple and beautiful) composition for solo mandolin by Ernest-Louis Patierno (1863-1929)
    I tried to present this composition as close as possible to the author's text. However, I made some changes related to the playing technique. The mandolin playing technique of that era used a lot of tremolo when playing long notes. Among other things my approach to extending sounds includes is to add some harmony to the long notes, either an appropriate interval, chord or counterpoint. In a sense, tremolo is also adding notes to a melody, adding identical notes.

    https://youtu.be/qwrsVtjLUiU

    Toomas Rannu
    Flat-backed mandolin, crafted by Viljar Kuusk in 2008 (Tallinn, Estonia)

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    Default Re: “Simple et belle” by Ernest-Louis Patierno

    Good arrangement Toomas; the light touch gives it a character that seems a lot of tremolo would spoil. Funny how taste and style changes with time: When I listen to some of the older recordings of great players with lots of tremolo and glissando they sometimes seem sentimental and "soupy." That was the style of the time I assume, but I prefer a clean and subtle approach-- like yours.
    Jim

    Dr James S Imhoff
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    Default Re: “Simple et belle” by Ernest-Louis Patierno

    Thank you Toomas, lovely as usual!

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    Default Re: “Simple et belle” by Ernest-Louis Patierno

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Imhoff View Post
    Good arrangement Toomas; the light touch gives it a character that seems a lot of tremolo would spoil. Funny how taste and style changes with time: When I listen to some of the older recordings of great players with lots of tremolo and glissando they sometimes seem sentimental and "soupy." That was the style of the time I assume, but I prefer a clean and subtle approach-- like yours.
    Thank you, Jim! Arranging a piece sometimes feels like surviving in an unknown place. Your opinion encourages me to go on, and gives me hope that I can make it. I have also thought of recording a historical performance of some pieces, unfortunately I do not have enough knowledge of the playing technique of that era. I know that Ernesto-Louis Patierno published a mandolin playing textbook during his time, (E. Patierno, Méthode de mandoline. 2e édition modifiée. Paris : H. Lemoine, [1913]). and if I ever manage to get to know it, maybe I'll try to play some of his pieces.

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    Default Re: “Simple et belle” by Ernest-Louis Patierno

    Another gem from you, Toomas. I am like you as far as tremolo goes, and I love your comment about it adding extra notes!
    I'm playing all the right notes, but not necessarily in the right order. - Eric Morecambe

    http://www.youtube.com/user/TheOldBores

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    Default Re: “Simple et belle” by Ernest-Louis Patierno

    Lovely playing and arrangement, but I do prefer the tremolo style...but I'm Italian-American and tend to use a lot of tremolo in my own playing! I guess I'm alone in thinking that it sounds a bit too open, but that seems to be the point of the non-tremolo style. I guess I like the sentimental and "soupy" approach.

    Still, well done.

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    Default Re: “Simple et belle” by Ernest-Louis Patierno

    Very nice. Lovely.
    A talent for trivializin' the momentous and complicatin' the obvious.

    The entire staff
    funny....

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    Default Re: “Simple et belle” by Ernest-Louis Patierno

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidKOS View Post
    Lovely playing and arrangement, but I do prefer the tremolo style...but I'm Italian-American and tend to use a lot of tremolo in my own playing! I guess I'm alone in thinking that it sounds a bit too open, but that seems to be the point of the non-tremolo style. I guess I like the sentimental and "soupy" approach.

    Still, well done.
    I respect your thoughts here David, and my comments on soupy (sorry, poor choice of words; portamento) tremolo style were more about taste and history than value. Yes, this music was created at a time when that was the style and probably should be played that way to be "authentic" (although ethnomusicologists have started avoiding that term as it is so subjective). I do not want to hear Bach played in an overly and overtly romantic way, or Renaissance motets sing with operatic voices. By the same token, I would not want to hear Mahler, Chopin, or Calace played in a metronomic and dispassionate way. I have not heard this particular piece or Patierno's music before, and it would be interesting to hear your take on it as someone who is immersed in the traditional Italian style. I probably need to listen to more period recordings to appreciate the flowing and romantic effects of the portamento and tremolo.
    Let's see what Toomas comes up with in his explorations.
    Jim

    Dr James S Imhoff
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    Default Re: “Simple et belle” by Ernest-Louis Patierno

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Imhoff View Post
    .. it would be interesting to hear your take on it as someone who is immersed in the traditional Italian style. I probably need to listen to more period recordings to appreciate the flowing and romantic effects of the portamento and tremolo.
    Let's see what Toomas comes up with in his explorations.
    First, I highly respect Toomas' playing and interpretation. It's just not exactly the way I'd like to hear the music.

    I'll see if I locate a copy of the original work, as I would love to try to play it in the older style.

    I also appreciate that many styles of mandolin playing just are not tremolo-friendly, such as Irish music, some modern mandolin compositions from Germany, etc.

    I have Patierno's "Methode de Mandoline" and on page 13 there is a section on tremolo, and a number of the other pages such as p.20, p.22, p.44 have specific exercises that require use of tremolo.

    I guess that's why I was mentioning an alternative interpretation that may be closer to the composer's intent.

    Anyway, there is always room for alternative realizations of music, and I do give Toomas credit for his rendition.

    NOTE - I just downloaded a copy of the original, and it's marked with many single pickstrokes and not a lot of tremolo! It's also a polka, so it could be played a bit faster than Toomas' version.

    Mostly the middle section "Cantabile" would have tremolo, but not so much the rest of the work.

    I stand somewhat corrected.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Last edited by DavidKOS; Apr-28-2023 at 6:08pm.

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    Default Re: “Simple et belle” by Ernest-Louis Patierno

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Imhoff View Post
    ... and it would be interesting to hear your take on it
    Hi Jim, here's a quick read through of the piece, just to give an idea of how I'd read the original music. It's not perfect, but it'll give you an idea of an older style version.


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    Default Re: “Simple et belle” by Ernest-Louis Patierno

    A nice clean interpretation of the piece, David: The tremolo suits it. I think the stylistic element that bothered me in the old recordings was the sense of sliding between notes and lingering on things. Your playing, as with Toomas' respects the flow and line of the music. There is something self-absorbed about overly sentimental and romantic interpretations, like the opera singer who holds a high note just to show off, whether it fits the music or not. That is the quality I don't care for, and I don't hear anything like that in your fine playing.
    Jim

    Dr James S Imhoff
    Boston University
    Oregon Mandolin Orchestra

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    Default Re: “Simple et belle” by Ernest-Louis Patierno

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Imhoff View Post
    A nice clean interpretation of the piece, David: The tremolo suits it. I think the stylistic element that bothered me in the old recordings was the sense of sliding between notes and lingering on things. Your playing, as with Toomas' respects the flow and line of the music. There is something self-absorbed about overly sentimental and romantic interpretations, like the opera singer who holds a high note just to show off, whether it fits the music or not. That is the quality I don't care for, and I don't hear anything like that in your fine playing.
    Thanks!

    I did my best to actually follow the picking instructions and the dynamics (although I missed a few) in the well-written original. I had to make certain to hit all those downstrokes, where I might have used more alternate picking left to my own devices.

    Although I do occasionally use portamento and glissando when playing certain things, like my deliberately semi-humorous "Torna a Surriento" where I send up the exact type of over-the-top performance you mention, I try to keep it to something that serves the music. I'm not sure I always live up to that ideal.

    I also want to thank Toomas for the links on his video to Music Neo, where I found several of Patierno's books, which have a treasure trove of lovely mandolin music, which I plan to explore in the future.

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    Default Re: “Simple et belle” by Ernest-Louis Patierno

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidKOS View Post
    Here's a quick read through of the piece, just to give an idea of how I'd read the original music. It's not perfect, but it'll give you an idea of an older style version.
    Very nice! Mr. Patierno, Italian birth name Ernesto-Luigi, has really written down and added the playing style of this piece in great detail. Also, at the beginning of the collection there is an explanation of the corresponding signs of playing technique:

    “Author's Note. To make it easier for amateurs to play the pieces that are part of this collection, we have included different signs above the notes, the figures and their meanings of which are shown below”.

    You've done a nice performance based on that, and that's probably how the piece sounded at the time. This style of playing also allows you to play the polka faster, about 90bpm in my version and over 110bpm in yours. And my deep respect for the composer's intentions. However, I'm more interested in the surprises that the instrument offers and how it enriches this great music and, who knows, maybe develops the composer's intentions.
    At certain times, certain instruments have been played in certain ways. I haven't read a more comprehensive approach to the development of mandolin playing technique, but it seems that mandolin playing technique has remained relatively unchanged for quite a long time, compared to, for example, the violin. And maybe the specific sound of this instrument is too fixed in our ears. I have made a conscious effort to forget this specific sound of the mandolin, and the more I succeed, the more I am surprised by the sound and technical possibilities of this wonderful instrument.
    Also, I'm not sure, but I tend to think that tremolo is not a means of musical expression, but more of a way to solve the technical problem of prolonging sounds on a particular instrument. I am looking for solutions to this problem that are more musical, solutions that would open up new sound and playing possibilities.
    My best wishes to you!
    Toomas
    Last edited by Toomas Rannu; May-02-2023 at 2:21am.

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    Default Re: “Simple et belle” by Ernest-Louis Patierno

    Quote Originally Posted by Toomas Rannu View Post
    However, I'm more interested in the surprises that the instrument offers and how it enriches this great music and, who knows, maybe develops the composer's intentions.
    And I appreciate your concept, arrangements and playing style too. It's just a different approach, and equally valid in today's mandolin world.


    Quote Originally Posted by Toomas Rannu View Post
    At certain times, certain instruments have been played in certain ways. I haven't read a more comprehensive approach to the development of mandolin playing technique, but it seems that mandolin playing technique has remained relatively unchanged for quite a long time, compared to, for example, the violin.
    To my ears, mandolin technique has seemed to change over the years, especially with the popularity of Bluegrass and it's particular stylistic practices, and the use of mandolin in various forms of folk and traditional music, such as choro, American roots music, blues, rock, Irish traditional music, etc.

    The old Italian style and turn of the 20th century parlor style I love do not seem to be the most popular ways to play anymore.

    Quote Originally Posted by Toomas Rannu View Post
    Also, I'm not sure, but I tend to think that tremolo is not a means of musical expression, but more of a way to solve the technical problem of prolonging sounds on a particular instrument.
    When used unsympathetically, perhaps so, but to me tremolo is at the heart of mandolin playing and is a very expressive means of both sustaining notes and conveying emotion, particularly when one uses dynamics while playing tremolo, and can then apply crescendo and decrescendo.

    Another thing, without tremolo, much of the Italian music I play would just not sound very Italian! It would be like cooking Southern Italian food without olive oil or garlic.

    One of the beautiful things about the mandolin is that it allows for such diverse playing styles such as mine, yours, and many other folks.

    Thanks for expanding the expressive abilities of the instrument.

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    Default Re: “Simple et belle” by Ernest-Louis Patierno

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidKOS View Post

    Another thing, without tremolo, much of the Italian music I play would just not sound very Italian! It would be like cooking Southern Italian food without olive oil or garlic.
    Thank you David! I appreciate your experience of Italian style palyig technique and I'm glad you shared it, it really helps. Without knowing old playing styles, the development of new techniques is unthinkable, and your skills are an important link here. And this comparison with Southern Italian food is just perfect! I was thinking more about the development of classical European mandolin playing until the second half of the last century compared to the same development in violin playing. It seems that the mandolin has been viewed as a secondary instrument here. The primary ones are still mostly violin and guitar. But I think that it is possible to change this attitude significantly. Wish you all the best!

    P.S Still interested in Patierno's "Methode de Mandoline", previously discussed here. May I ask, what form do you have it in? Can you recommend where I could get one?

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    Default Re: “Simple et belle” by Ernest-Louis Patierno

    In bluegrass and old time styles the steady, fast tremolo seems to be a matter of sustaining and projecting longer notes. But even in those styles it can be an expressive device, maybe on a slower tune like Lonesome Moonlight Waltz, Ashokan Farewell or Moonlight on the Water. In some classical and Italian music it can have an effect similar to the vocalist's messa da voce, a crescendo-decrescendo < > .
    Jim

    Dr James S Imhoff
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    Default Re: “Simple et belle” by Ernest-Louis Patierno

    Quote Originally Posted by Toomas Rannu View Post
    P.S Still interested in Patierno's "Methode de Mandoline", previously discussed here. May I ask, what form do you have it in? Can you recommend where I could get one?
    Here's the link, Toomas, enjoy.

    https://www.mandoisland.de/noten2016...-mandoline.pdf

    and a thread link

    https://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/t...r-and-Patierno

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