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Thread: Top wood for bowl backs - source

  1. #1

    Default Top wood for bowl backs - source

    Now that I’m getting more confident (reckless), the nice De Meglio that’s been hanging around here for many years with a really bad top may get fixed. Seems to be approximately 2.5 mm. I see ukulele material is available.
    Any suggestions, i.e, one or two piece, vendors?
    Thanks.

  2. #2
    Likes quaint instruments poul hansen's Avatar
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    Default Re: Top wood for bowl backs - source

    I have lately succeeded in closing cracks and removing warping, by steaming the interior of a mandolin and then glue with superglue when closed. But be careful as the hotglue gets soft as well. I tape the bowl and top with painters tape to keep it together.

    I only had one mishap where a poorly glued/repaired part of a cracked brace loosened.
    Kentucky KM-805..........2 Hora M1086 Portuguese II(1 in car)
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    Registered User Tavy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Top wood for bowl backs - source

    DeMeglio's are normally nice sturdy instruments - are you sure it can't be repaired?

    If you're going to re-top then it would have European spruce originally, and yes about 2.5mm thick. You would also likely need new braces, and the centre reinforcing strip, and very likely new tulip-wood binding. The latter is available as pen-turning blanks, but is hard as nails and not at all easy to work. Replacing binding on DeMeglio's is super-fiddly and time consuming believe me. Oh and don't forget that to replace the top you would need to remove and replace a section of fingerboard too.

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    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: Top wood for bowl backs - source

    Would you really need to use steam to de-warp the top and close up cracks? I have had some of my luthiers just use cool humdification by putting the instrument in a plastic bag with some water for a week or two.
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  7. #5

    Default Re: Top wood for bowl backs - source

    Here’s the slight cosmetic problem in pictures. The bowl is intact, the neck is going to either be reset or shimmed, and the top is warped as shown. How or why is not clear, other than the original board having internal stresses, but I assumed that just flattening and glueing wasn’t going to be straightforward, but if it is, of course I’ll try. This must have been a yard sale dollar special, and I hadn’t looked at the label until reading this site clued me in on the maker’s reputation.
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    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: Top wood for bowl backs - source

    Phew! There must be a story behind that one: jealous wife smashes his mandolin, etc. Or, more likely just stored in a hot attic for decades then dropped on its face. I would guess the top may not be worth resurrecting since parts are missing and warpage looks to be on multiple axes.

    Are all the tulipwood borders intact. As John noted that may be a plus, if so.
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    Default Re: Top wood for bowl backs - source

    Exept for that small section in the upper right, I am not seeing any vertical grain. Is it spruce? Cut on the slab?
    Charley

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    Default Re: Top wood for bowl backs - source

    Hmmmm… I wonder if you aren’t the first person to attempt to fix this one.

    Also, it may be obvious but that is not a DeMeglio bridge. They have a metal bar for the saddle inserted into the bridge. These mandolins usually have cast metal nut/zero fret IIRC.
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    Default Re: Top wood for bowl backs - source

    European spruce is available through violin supply houses.
    North American spruce would work fine, though it might upset a purist.

    And yes, I would replace the top rather than attempting to repair it.

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    Default Re: Top wood for bowl backs - source

    Quote Originally Posted by rcc56 View Post
    European spruce is available through violin supply houses.
    North American spruce would work fine, though it might upset a purist.

    And yes, I would replace the top rather than attempting to repair it.
    OTOH a purist would still consider it a replaced top anyway. And if this were a mandolin like the famous one with a top smashed with a fire poker then the restored might need to piece together the puzzle pieces of the top. However, this is not the case and as Charley noted this may not even be the original top anyway.
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  17. #11

    Default Re: Top wood for bowl backs - source

    Good point about the grain. Except for the triangles near the neck, one of which looks like spruce vertical grain, the top wood is nearly featureless on the section at 10X and shows no visible grain anywhere. The border is intact except for one or two pieces, and the way this is put together, it can mostly stay in place. Not obvious is the glue reside of a large sound hole surround, not present. The outline can be traced. The nut is sort of a backwards zero fret, two brass pieces. Looked inside; the braces are intact, but disconnected. The fingerboard is almost perfect, and I think the whole neck, which is monolithic, is mostly separated from the ribs and so can be removed, which simplifies things a bit, although clamping it back in will be interesting. If it was a repair, it was neat. No idea what the wood might be, but spruce should be adequate.

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    Registered User Tavy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Top wood for bowl backs - source

    No you have the original pickguard? If not I would probably turn this into a "new" mandolin rather than attempting to restore! Either way I wish you the best of luck.

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    Default Re: Top wood for bowl backs - source

    This one is going to need a little extra steam.

    I bought a short stack of 2.5mm spruce top 'halves' from a place out in CA about 10 years ago.

    For the life of me, I can't dig up the source. It wasn't one of the obvious vendors (eg LMI).

    I've used them on a number of bowls, bowldolas and on a mandolinetto.

    I still have a number of them stored, but unfortunately without any shipping info.

    I'll keep digging for the source.

    What's the year and serial number on your DeMeglio, Richard, btw?

    I though John was going to ask first


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  22. #14

    Default Re: Top wood for bowl backs - source

    A little indistinct
    Mod. 1 (A). ?
    No. 7687 or 1681
    Anno 1898

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    Default Re: Top wood for bowl backs - source

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard500 View Post
    A little indistinct
    Mod. 1 (A). ?
    No. 7687 or 1681
    Anno 1898
    Serial Number probably starts with a 7 since 1897 started with a 6 according to the DeMeglio serial number thread here: https://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/t...d-lables/page6
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    Default Re: Top wood for bowl backs - source

    Thanks, Richard. We have yours added to the burgeoning DeMeglio data base of 161 mandolins, or about 0.80% of their apparent total production.

    The pen script on the DeMeglio labels does make some numbers difficult to discern until you see a lot of examples and get used to it.

    Here's an 1893 DeMeglio label with a 1224 label and an 1897 with a 7261 label.

    Sometimes the Euro-style leading line of a scrip "1" can also confuse the two. Same way sometimes for the way 4s and 5s are written.

    Trying to get your ink pen down through that tiny hole and writing on a curved surface could be pretty tricky, I guess.

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  27. #17

    Default Re: Top wood for bowl backs - source

    Thanks for all the help. I’ve looked at as many photos of these as easily found, and now agree that what I have had been re-topped: The two triangles of spruce near the neck do not exist on others: the tops are one piece. The job was neat, the pick guard/rosette was obviously transferred, but the wood for the top that wasused was something other than spruce. So, some mystery remains, more to emerge once the top comes off, and we get a better look at the braces.
    I think of those thick, surface mounted pick guards as really excessive mass to burden the top, but since really top notch instruments were made with them….
    Meanwhile another restoration is taking my attention on warm days!

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    Default Re: Top wood for bowl backs - source

    I could be wrong about this but are those pickguards actually solid. I was under the impression that they were hollow underneath. I don’t own a DeMeglio any more but I am sure John or others can verify one way or the other. In any case you could put a thin tortoise-oid sheet in the same profile shape as the original one.
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    Default Re: Top wood for bowl backs - source

    They are ‘solid’ Jim, as in not having a lip or edge that makes them appear thicker than they are.

    Consistent thickness.

    Just checked on a loose one I have on a basket-case-but-not-as-big-of-a-basket-as-Richard’s DeMeglio I’ve got.

    Mick
    Last edited by brunello97; Mar-13-2023 at 7:14pm.
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    Default Re: Top wood for bowl backs - source

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Garber View Post
    I could be wrong about this but are those pickguards actually solid. I was under the impression that they were hollow underneath. I don’t own a DeMeglio any more but I am sure John or others can verify one way or the other. In any case you could put a thin tortoise-oid sheet in the same profile shape as the original one.
    I've always felt they were quite excessively thick, and must surely dampen the top.... but, I note that a hardwood "annular ring" around the soundhole is generally a good thing producing a noticeably louder instrument... so maybe this is a bit of both, strengthening round the soundhole, but large enough to dampen the top as well and ending up somewhere near neutral? Or maybe it's just surprising what you can get away with!

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    Default Re: Top wood for bowl backs - source

    Quote Originally Posted by Tavy View Post
    I've always felt they were quite excessively thick, and must surely dampen the top.... but, I note that a hardwood "annular ring" around the soundhole is generally a good thing producing a noticeably louder instrument... so maybe this is a bit of both, strengthening round the soundhole, but large enough to dampen the top as well and ending up somewhere near neutral? Or maybe it's just surprising what you can get away with!
    I assume these were the same thickness as the ones Ceccherini used?

    DeMeglio used them for over 25 years of production.

    I wonder what prompted the selection in the first place, if not what you suggest, John?

    I understand the stylistic consistency but even CF Martin made changes in their scratchplate shape and location.

    Vinaccia, Calace and Cristofaro seemed to change scratchplate shape and type (recessed or not) with every year.

    Other than the Martin A and Embergher #5s have we seen such consistancy from a maker over such a long stretch?

    I'm leaving out Gibson F-5 and A-50, but maybe I shouldn't.

    Mick
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    Default Re: Top wood for bowl backs - source

    Or the dimensionality (i.e. thickness) was novel, and fashionable, like the how the inlay designs followed the memes of the period. If I get that far, I can sample the sound with and without a big plastic damper on the same top.

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    Default Re: Top wood for bowl backs - source

    When DeMeglio began work in early ‘90s perhaps it was novel, but many of their design features were as well.

    Recall that DeMeglio used this scratch plate (and design details) for nearly 30 years of novelty and fashionable-ness, while other novelties and fashions swirled around.

    My hunch is that they had something else in mind.

    Ceccherini deployed numerous similar features, including the same scratch plate and added others.

    Many unanswered questions about their work and potential relationships.

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    Default Re: Top wood for bowl backs - source

    Quote Originally Posted by brunello97 View Post
    I assume these were the same thickness as the ones Ceccherini used?

    DeMeglio used them for over 25 years of production.

    I wonder what prompted the selection in the first place, if not what you suggest, John?

    I understand the stylistic consistency but even CF Martin made changes in their scratchplate shape and location.

    Vinaccia, Calace and Cristofaro seemed to change scratchplate shape and type (recessed or not) with every year.

    Other than the Martin A and Embergher #5s have we seen such consistancy from a maker over such a long stretch?

    I'm leaving out Gibson F-5 and A-50, but maybe I shouldn't.

    Mick
    To be honest, I've never seen the point of these "scratchplates", classical players are presumably not flailing around as much as some bluegrassers do Plus they're in the wrong place IMO: if they were next to the soundhole that might make a difference, but does anyone pick right near the bridge where the scratchplate is? Plus I don't think I've ever whacked my pick on the top of any mandolin... don't get me started on Florida's though, I don't find them as obnoxious as some, but they do get in the way IMO.

    With regard to damping: it's generally accepted that a thin plastic scratchplate on a guitar has zero discernible effect on sound, so I expect that the wafer thin TS inlays used by most makers were similar. Quite what DeMeglio and Ceccherini were thinking though is another matter. Using the same design could be seen as a good piece of branding though - it's certainly a distinctive design - and one quite often imitated as witnessed by DeMeglio's ever more extreme invective towards the fakers and forgeries! Even many of the bigger/better known makers borrowed the DeMeglio look from time to time including Stridente and some of the "Students of Vinaccia". So I imagine that once they had a good clear brand established they just kept with it!

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    Default Re: Top wood for bowl backs - source

    Quote Originally Posted by Tavy View Post
    Even many of the bigger/better known makers borrowed the DeMeglio look from time to time including Stridente and some of the "Students of Vinaccia". So I imagine that once they had a good clear brand established they just kept with it!

    This has long been a topic of interest for me....first off, I don't really think Stridente made their whole line of work, or perhaps not any of it, but were a labeler of work made in Sicily and / or other locations. Too much variety in model types and design features. They certainly ran the gamut from mandoline tres ordinaire to a few odd examples of quite ornate work. Hard to imagine them putting down their Vinaccia inspired style to make one or two DeMeglio copies unless it was just for fun. They had their own 'brand' of sorts.

    DeMeglio was turning out mandolins by the thousands and could very easily have "made for the trade" a la Lyon and Healy. I've seen the "warning" labels on the DeMeglio labels, some in French and some in English. Clearly where their market was. I've seen very few if any DeMeglios show up on Italian ebay, for instance. So far almost entirely in the UK. That proves nothing of course.

    Some of the so-called "DeMeglio clones" copy a feature or two from the originals but are pretty obviously not. Some are so dead on similar that Ockham's Razor suggest that they could very well have been made by DeMeglio...or perhaps who they might have been sourcing work from themselves.

    CF Martin made almost the exact same A style mandolin for what? 50 years? Yep, if you've got a good thing, roll with it, but it remains pretty unique for the time and place where so many stylistic changes came and went. Vinaccia and Calace and Cristofaro and Puglisi all had a pretty clear 'brand' identity, too, but oh, so many changes.

    Such speculation could be a dead end.

    The DeMeglio / Ceccherini connection (or lack thereof) seems to be just waiting for that smoking gun of information. Were the DeMeglio labels a warning against Ceccherini instead of the "attack of the clones"? Ceccherini's big market was also the UK.

    Just wondering.

    Mick
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