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Thread: Chop chords help

  1. #1
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    Default Chop chords help

    Hi all,

    I recently started learning four-finger chop chords and I feel I am stuck. For context, I have a bunch of experience with guitar, but I am a beginner on the mandolin.

    My issue is that I have trouble stretching my hand enough, particularly my pinky, e.g., when shaping up a G. Speed, strength, stamina... all those things I know how to gradually improve. But how do you teach your body something it does not think it can do? There's no "gradually" getting to a chop G-chord, either your fingers get there, or they don't (hope my problem is clear).

    Any advice would be welcome. I know that a lot of people play happily without ever using full chop chords. I respect that, but it is important for me to learn them.

  2. #2

    Default Re: Chop chords help

    Actually, gradually stretching *is* possible.

    I suggest you play it 5 frets up, as a C chord. Put your fingers down and play it slowly (not chop) to be sure each string is fretted cleanly. Take your fingers off then repeat.

    When you can do this 10 times cleanly, move it down one fret to instead play a B chord. Same drill until perfect, then move down a fret.

    Then down a fret to the Bb chord.

    Then down to the A.

    Then to Ab.

    Then to G.

    Then down one more fret to Gb / F#. That will stretch things just a bit farther, so going back to G will be that much more effortless.

    Good luck!
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  4. #3
    Stop the chop!
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    Default Re: Chop chords help

    My suggestion is: avoid four-note chords completely. Three-note chords connect more smoothly, are easier to move around on the fretboard, and leave more room for passing chords such as dim chords. The big chop G can easily be replaced by, e.g., d-b-g-* on frets 5-10-11-* -- it has the same compass as the big chop G, without doubling the root note.

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  6. #4
    Registered User grassrootphilosopher's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chop chords help

    I once attended a mandolin workshop that was lead by the great Jimmy Geaudreau. He asked what our main mando problem was. A lady said that she could not do the bluegrass chop chords. JG said she should stretch her fingers. She said she tried but failed. He asked to show him. She showed him. She had so small hands, that it was virtually impossible for her to reach a bluegrass chop chord.

    I would advise to try. If it is truely impossible, do something different, like playing less strings while chopping or using a different fingering.
    Olaf

  7. #5
    Registered User Tom Haywood's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chop chords help

    It does take time for the hand to learn to stretch out for a chop chord. It has a lot to do with relaxing the hand and forearm. The muscle learning process is gradual, even though your goal is to fully grab the chord on time. I recommend starting with B and work your way down to A over time. G will fall into place after that. The actual chop is done primarily on the G and D courses - the two lowest string sets while muting the high strings, so you can also learn a shortcut that uses your index and middle fingers on those strings. Full chop chords are really the necessary voicing for most true bluegrass music, but they are frequently the wrong voicing in other styles of music. It's good to have the various chord shapes in your toolbox. I liken the full chop chord to full bar chords on the guitar. They help you to quickly get a bearing on the chord progression and keep you going until you work out which chord voicing sounds best. And they require regular practice to keep your hand strong enough to play them.
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    The Amateur Mandolinist Mark Gunter's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chop chords help

    There is one tip that is most helpful to most people and I think hasn’t been mentioned … while learning to play this chord, begin by placing your pinky first then add the others. It is a simple thing, but usually effective. If you start at the “pinky end” you will most likely find it easier to do the final stretch with your middle and index fingers than starting with them and stretching out the pinky. If you are able to practice making the chord cleanly that way, it will only be a matter of time and practice for your brain to learn to catch that chord on the fly.
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    Default Re: Chop chords help

    forest, trees. purpose of the 7523 G chord is not finger torture. purpose is to produce a specific sound. start with partial chord 75xx and you will get most of that sound, as you hand gets used to it, eventually add the missing A and E strings. if your fingers are too short and cannot reach, so be it, just accept it and move on. if your teacher insists that you cannot play mandolin unless you can finger 7523, change teachers. or switch to octave mandolin or mandocello, where 7523-shape chords are impossible and this whole issue will stop bothering you very quickly. (hint: instead stretching fingers, you move hand).

  10. #8

    Default Re: Chop chords help

    I've been playing mandolin seriously for only a couple of years, although I dabbled a bit now and then over my life. I am just now getting comfortable with doing I-IV-V transitions with 4 course chop chords. If you can reach them at all, it just takes practice - especially if you're used to guitar chords that rarely span more than three frets.
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  12. #9

    Default Re: Chop chords help

    I've been playing mandolin now for only five years. It took me about 2 and probably more years of constant practice to achieve a ffcc in G and A. I would get really depressed about it, but my instructor told me a story about Sierra Hull (which I think is true, maybe not) when she would cry about having the same problem. She was very young at the time, a child I think. Anyway, his point was that if you are truly dedicated to achieving it, you most likely can do it with practice. I continued to work at it and finally got it. I'm not a super good player, but I think I've got decent skills after frequent practice.

    I think if you're an absolute newbie, starting with three finger chords works well. Once you have those down, it's not that hard to add the pinky. And I agree with putting down your pinky first. I'm still having problems getting really clean changes from D at 5-4-7 to A. I find putting down the pinky first when I change to A seems to orient my other fingers more cleanly.

  13. #10

    Default Re: Chop chords help

    Do start higher up the neck, and also try setting the two base courses first as Mark suggested above. After mastering it feel free to cheat and chop the base pair alone. That way you have it for octave mando or tenor guitar.

    Scott

  14. #11

    Default Re: Chop chords help

    Lot's of good advice been said already.

    I agree that it's not a deal breaker if you can't yet play a full chop 7523 - but you can probably get there if you play a lot and loosen up your hand. Unless of course, you have exceptionally small hands...

    Playing for many hours at jam sessions in my opinion is the easiest way to get there.

    that said you can make a perfectly good G chop with 75xx. x523 is good and 455x is also good to know. 7557 also.... good to have options for different musical situations and to keep it interesting.

  15. #12
    not a donut Kevin Winn's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chop chords help

    +1 on starting with chop chords farther up the neck as a way to get your fingers accustomed to what they'll need to do. And Mark's suggestion of starting with the pinky really does help.

    Also, make sure your fretting hand is angled properly. The proper position for a guitar (where your fingers are perpendicular to the frets) won't work on a mandolin.
    Hold your instrument up like it's a violin. That's the angle your fretting hand should be.
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    Default Re: Chop chords help

    +1 for starting higher up the neck. I advocate for taking it slowly and practicing the chord fingerings with a relaxed hand. Be alert to and leery of tension building up as you play. Muscling your pinky out where it needs to be is counterproductive. You’re practicing tension when you do that. Remember, if you can’t play it slowly (and relaxed) you’ll not likely ever play it fast.
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  17. #14
    Registered User Sue Rieter's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chop chords help

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Winn View Post
    ...Also, make sure your fretting hand is angled properly...
    I find that my pinkie is uncooperative in this. It wants to angle up toward the peghead.
    "To be obsessed with the destination is to remove the focus from where you are." Philip Toshio Sudo, Zen Guitar

  18. #15

    Default Re: Chop chords help

    Quote Originally Posted by Sue Rieter View Post
    I find that my pinkie is uncooperative in this. It wants to angle up toward the peghead.
    Jake Howard of the Henhouse Prowlers is starting a video lesson session on Sam Bush-style rhythm, and his opening lesson is a pretty good primer on bluegrass chopping.



    I know you're focused on the mechanics of getting your fingers in the right place, but this may be useful.

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  20. #16
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    Default Re: Chop chords help

    Thanks
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    Innocent Bystander JeffD's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chop chords help

    I had a similar problem and what fixed it for me was placing my hand down in the chord position starting with the pinky and working towards the index. No problem.

    Seems goofy but it matters. If I stretch my fingers apart from the fixed pinky up to the index, I can stretch almost half an inch more than if I stretch from a fixed index finger down to the pinky.

    Play with it and see if that helps.
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  22. #18
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    Default Re: Chop chords help

    Thanks everyone! Starting further down the neck, pinky first, sounds like great advice. I will try that.

    I get the point about 4-finger chords not been strictly necessary, but I also don't see any reason not to learn them, *if* it turns out I can reach them :-)

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