Artistworks vs Peghead Nation

[EMPeterson]

For the Holidays I'm treating myself to an online lesson platform subscription. On the verge of subscribing to ArtistWorks with their 50% off sale, but am also interested in Peghead Nation and have seen some good things said about Magnus Zetterlund's MandolinSecrets.

Does anyone have glowing recommendations, or strong feelings about one platform over another Any and all input is welcome!

My background for context: I'm a relatively inexperienced musician. I took piano lessons as a kid for ~8 years before switching to trumpet in Jr. High & High School for ~6 years. Stopped playing music for about a decade before picking up the mandolin at the beginning of this past summer. So I have a pretty firm grasp of music theory and the basic fundamentals of playing the mandolin. Looking for some Advanced-Beginner and intermediate level lessons to take my playing to the next level!

[bigskygirl]

I would take some in person lessons to get started off on the right foot with technique. Everything you are considering has it’s good and bad points, no substitute for real time feedback.

Pick a player you like and contact them, in the meantime Mandolessons and MandoMike have some beginning videos to get you started. Have fun.

[EMPeterson]

I've briefly looked into finding a local teacher to take some in-person lessons, but haven't been able to find anything. Based out of Syracuse, NY if you have any suggestions.

I've already watched all the MandoMike video's and all of Baron's Beginner & intermediate Series videos! I do still have some of the Technique videos to check out though.

[Rob Fowler]

I haven't taken any Peghead Nation lessons yet but they sure are tempting. I've been a member of Mike Marshall's school since 2020 and Sierra Hull's school since she started hers last August or so? For the money you can't beat Artistworks. Get a whole year with unlimited submissions for what like a little less than $150. It all depends on what YOU put into it though. Mike is really into posture and both he and Sierra are very into proper technique, pick stroke theory, etc. So if you are newer to mandolin they will surely get you started right. You just have to submit videos so they can see where you stand re: technique, posture, etc.

Peghead Nation sure has a bunch of amazing musicians teaching all kinds of great stuff but it's not based on evaluating on your playing, but seems to be based more on giving you a bunch of great lessons for beginners to advanced musicians. Someone correct me if I am wrong!

[bigskygirl]

I've briefly looked into finding a local teacher to take some in-person lessons, but haven't been able to find anything. Based out of Syracuse, NY if you have any suggestions.

I've already watched all the MandoMike video's and all of Baron's Beginner & intermediate Series videos! I do still have some of the Technique videos to check out though.

Good start, your best option is going to be online offerings. Lots of players are doing Zoom lessons and workshops now. Don Julin and Matt Flinner offer live Zoom workshops - Matt has some courses starting up in January. Christopher Henry and David McLaughlin are great for lessons, especially if you like Monroe-style. Wayne Benson has some YT videos and says he does private lessons. So many more can't list them all.

Pick who you like and see if they offer private lessons. You don't need a long term commitment just take a few to get started.

[Drew Egerton]

I have been on both ArtistWorks and Peghead Nation for a while now. 6 years or so at AW and a couple with PN.
The main difference is that there is absolutely no interactive aspect to Peghead Nation either with the teachers or other students. There are some fantastic teachers though with a lot of great material.
With Artistworks you get the video exchanges to get specific feedback to you on anything that you happen to want to work on. There are tons of tunes in the curriculum, but you can also send in anything else you like or just ask specific questions to clarify something.

One big plus for Peghead is that they allow you to switch between different courses a couple of times per month. So take a few months of one and then try out a different teacher, different style, different instrument, etc.

Both are great resources!

[EMPeterson]

With Artistworks you get the video exchanges to get specific feedback to you on anything that you happen to want to work on. There are tons of tunes in the curriculum, but you can also send in anything else you like or just ask specific questions to clarify something.

If i were to subscribe this very minute, I think I'd go with Peghead over ArtistWorks due to the fact that I'd prioritize a well developed and organized lesson path over the ability to submit videos and get feedback. But maybe I have some misconceptions about the video submission options on ArtistWorks...

Are the video exchanges actually helpful, and specifically tailored to the video you submitted? Its a brilliant idea, but my instinct is that they're not really all that useful in practice. I'm sure Mike & Sierra are incredibly busy with their own careers (practice, songwriting, touring, etc.) and that recording responses to artistworks students is more of a professional & contractual obligation than it is something they intentionally set aside time for and enjoy. I've seen in some other threads that the response vides from Mike/Sierra often take 5-20 days to come back and that they're more just general advice than specific tips and instructions based on the submitted video.

I have no doubt in their dedication to the platform or in the fact that they love an are passionate about teaching, I'm just saying that I can't imagine lesson response videos fall high on their priority list, and that their feedback is therefore likely less personalized and specifically tailored to your submission and more general feedback in the area of your practice.

[Drew Egerton]

If i were to subscribe this very minute, I think I'd go with Peghead over ArtistWorks due to the fact that I'd prioritize a well developed and organized lesson path over the ability to submit videos and get feedback. But maybe I have some misconceptions about the video submission options on ArtistWorks...

Are the video exchanges actually helpful, and specifically tailored to the video you submitted? Its a brilliant idea, but my instinct is that they're not really all that useful in practice. I'm sure Mike & Sierra are incredibly busy with their own careers (practice, songwriting, touring, etc.) and that recording responses to artistworks students is more of a professional & contractual obligation than it is something they intentionally set aside time for and enjoy. I've seen in some other threads that the response vides from Mike/Sierra often take 5-20 days to come back and that they're more just general advice than specific tips and instructions based on the submitted video.

I have no doubt in their dedication to the platform or in the fact that they love an are passionate about teaching, I'm just saying that I can't imagine lesson response videos fall high on their priority list, and that their feedback is therefore likely less personalized and specifically tailored to your submission and more general feedback in the area of your practice.

It's about 10 days for a response. If they are doing a lot of traveling/touring it can be a little longer. They will point out things very specific to what you are doing. Like Rob said above, posture and technique are big points that are brought up pretty often. Pick grip, timing, tone, etc.
The AW courses have a huge recorded curriculum with multiple levels. Lots of tunes with tabs/music, backing tracks, etc. and exercises.

You can't go wrong with either one really. Try both if you can and keep the one you like best.

[keith.rogers]

...
Are the video exchanges actually helpful, and specifically tailored to the video you submitted? Its a brilliant idea, but my instinct is that they're not really all that useful in practice. I'm sure Mike & Sierra are incredibly busy with their own careers (practice, songwriting, touring, etc.) and that recording responses to artistworks students is more of a professional & contractual obligation than it is something they intentionally set aside time for and enjoy.
....

Well, I cannot speak to Sierra's class, but I took Mike's for a year and a half, and I'm into my 2nd month with Caterina Lichtenberg's classical mandolin class. I never, personally, saw a 20 day response, though there were a few that were at the outside of the two week turnaround. But, your statement about it being "not really all that useful" is pretty wide of the mark.

Before I go onto my semi-rant here, let me say, ArtistWorks will not be everyone's cup of tea, and it does take some puzzling out how to make it work for each individual, especially with the built-in "lag" in the responses. If you try it and it doesn't work, please, try something else to figure out what kind of teaching/learning will work.

Now, my thoughts/experiences....
[soapbox]
I think they are *incredibly* generous with their time, and while you will hear them often "beating the same drum(s)" over and over, it's not laziness on their part as much as it is the students, IMHO. (And, I include myself there to some degree.) You seem to be missing one of the most useful part of the concept, and that is that you can see every single lesson submission and response ever done (something like 10k in Mike's class). For folks starting out, yes, the responses are pretty much of a similar content and may sound like "general advice" because it's simply the case that most of the students are in need of that kind of guidance. If one (as a student/subscriber) takes the time to listen to previous lessons and responses on something they're about to submit, and makes sure to *not* do the same things that have already been pointed out, they'd probably find the response had more specific information for them. And some of the responses, wow. They're like a master class, e.g., with a half dozen different ways you might approach a piece, how to break it down, etc. I mean, it's a piece you have worked on and submitted, and they'll point out the things *you* did wrong, or right.

Now, are these (professional musician instructor) folks busy? Yes, they are. But, imagine you've heard Salt Creek 500 times, played, umm, let's say not fantastically, how many different ways would you be able to say something unique and encouraging to each submitter? And, you have to understand (that as a student) you're getting, usually 10 minutes, maybe even 20 for more advanced material/students, for what $10-20 (not all going to the teacher!)? What would you pay one of these people for a private lesson, if you could even get on that list?

Ok, I've said my piece about how much I respect the folks that are doing this. Like I said, not for everyone, but with a bit of patience and discipline, I think it's a pretty good system for some folks, and a bargain.
[/soapbox]

[bigskygirl]

I wanted to add that any of these pre-recorded platforms are going to require you to mostly figure things out on your own...stop and start (loop) the video or have your nose in the TAB. If you are a self-starter that's great but if you're just beginning you don't know what you don't know.

Vidami makes a pedal that works with AW and PH that will let you pause, slow down, loop the video. I tried AW for a time and I just thought all the time I spent watching videos of other people could be time spent playing my mando so I decided it's not for me...YMMV.

Also, look for a jam in your area, it's a great way to learn/reenforce your skills and is loads of fun.

[Simon DS]

I haven’t done either course but I’ve been considering it recently.
I don’t really care for this ‘vs.’ thing. As a musician you probably need to learn from both, and more.

One thing about learning is that if you have the drive to do things that you find difficult or uncomfortable then you’ll advance quickly, learning things that apply in a wide range.
As a beginner you’ll probably want to take maybe eight or ten live lessons, something in a social setting, and have maybe a year with each PG and AW. To begin with.

And personally, in the past I’ve found that I often learned more from the people I wasn’t immediately attracted to!

[CarlM]

As far as Zoom/online instructors go, one friend of mine has had a fantastic experience with Emory Lester. Myself, I have taken lessons from Keith Yoder, primarily in guitar but some in mandolin. Keith is a fantastic instructor and multi instrumentalist and is highly regarded in his teaching at Kaufmann Kamp and Pete Wernick's Merlefest Camp among other high level teaching camps.

You would not go wrong with either of these instructors and both teach through Zoom online. Both are friendly, approachable and able to teach to a beginner level as well as advanced as you would wish.

[Deblues]

I love Artistworks and have taken lessons from a few teachers on there. Some of the response time can be a little slow to your VE's but that is the minority of the teachers. I have to say Bryan Sutton is the most responsive of all the teachers I've taken lessons from. I've been in Mike Marshalls class for 2 years and I signed up with Sierra last year, I think it's beneficial to take both classes. As someone said Mike is a bit more technical like in really harping on playing in a regular chair than using a desk chair that swivels, having a strap on, holding the mandolin correctly. Sierra will point out if you're doing something really wonky technically but she's a bit more easy going that way. Both are terrific teachers. All of the teachers really gear their comments to what they see on your Video Exchanges. Sometimes they may refer you to another students VE if they are working on the same kind of thing as you are and think you can benefit from some of the feedback they gave them. Mike has more content as he's been an Artistworks teacher longer but Sierra has good content and is going to be putting more up. At 1/2 off of the annual subscription I don't think you can beat it. I've learned a lot from all of them.

[Stopstop]

I agree with Rob and Kieth.

Mike is super generous with his time (I have no personal experience with Sierra or PH), and it is very valuable to have direct feedback to your VEs. We all do things that we don't realize & having the instructor point those things out is great. There is a very structured lesson scheme as well, which you can follow as you like.

The ~2 week lag time works for me, as it takes me at least that long to put a submission together anyway. I find the VEs to be very motivating for practice (because it's public I want to put my best foot forward), and I eagerly await Mike's responses. I look through old VEs like I'd watch Netflix or something, at the end of the day when I'm too tired to do much else. I imagine personal/zoom lessons are great, but for the cost of one of those lessons you get 6 months on AW (so potentially, what, 4 hours of responses to 12 VEs?). Anyway, whatever you decide, happy picking!

[DaveGinNJ]

If i were to subscribe this very minute, I think I'd go with Peghead over ArtistWorks due to the fact that I'd prioritize a well developed and organized lesson path over the ability to submit videos and get feedback. But maybe I have some misconceptions about the video submission options on ArtistWorks...

Are the video exchanges actually helpful, and specifically tailored to the video you submitted? Its a brilliant idea, but my instinct is that they're not really all that useful in practice. I'm sure Mike & Sierra are incredibly busy with their own careers (practice, songwriting, touring, etc.) and that recording responses to artistworks students is more of a professional & contractual obligation than it is something they intentionally set aside time for and enjoy. I've seen in some other threads that the response vides from Mike/Sierra often take 5-20 days to come back and that they're more just general advice than specific tips and instructions based on the submitted video.

I have no doubt in their dedication to the platform or in the fact that they love an are passionate about teaching, I'm just saying that I can't imagine lesson response videos fall high on their priority list, and that their feedback is therefore likely less personalized and specifically tailored to your submission and more general feedback in the area of your practice.

I have done many video submissions with Mike Marshall and I would say your speculation is incorrect. All the responses were thought out and offered specific feedback to the video I submitted. It was very definitely personalized. Mike has a good way of criticizing your playing without it seeming like criticism. The downside is that it can take 10-14 days to get a response but we are talking about world class musicians here

[EMPeterson]

I don’t really care for this ‘vs.’ thing. As a musician you probably need to learn from both, and more.

COMPLETELY agree.

But due to my limited time and resources, I can only subscribe to one for the time being. Just trying to figure out which to start with.

[EMPeterson]

THANK YOU for all the feedback & input everyone! I sincerely appreciate it. Very thankful to have found this wonderful community!

[FredK]

I went with Mike Marshall/ArtistWorks when I started my mandolin journey in 2017. He starts from the ground up whereas some other instructors have an expectation of certain knowledge and/or skill with mandolin. I did try the interactive thing but did not like the lag time. I'm one who likes immediate feedback so I don't get into a rut of doing things wrong. What's really nice about ArtistWorks is that you don't have to follow each lesson in progression. You can choose to skip around, which I did on occasion.

After Mike, I went with Sharon Gilchrist on Peghead Nation. She does not start at the very beginning like Mike but her teaching style is more in line with my way of learning. It was easier - for me - to stay with her progression of video instruction and not want to go ahead. Another nice feature about Peghead Nation is that you can switch instructors a couple times per month. I tried this with a few other instructors but kept going back to Sharon's course.

Both platforms are good for learning. I don't think you can go wrong with either one if you are wanting a subscription platform with world class instructors. My 2 cents worth. Enjoy the ride and keep on picking!

[Perry]

If i were to subscribe this very minute, I think I'd go with Peghead over ArtistWorks due to the fact that I'd prioritize a well developed and organized lesson path over the ability to submit videos and get feedback. But maybe I have some misconceptions about the video submission options on ArtistWorks...

Are the video exchanges actually helpful, and specifically tailored to the video you submitted? Its a brilliant idea, but my instinct is that they're not really all that useful in practice. I'm sure Mike & Sierra are incredibly busy with their own careers (practice, songwriting, touring, etc.) and that recording responses to artistworks students is more of a professional & contractual obligation than it is something they intentionally set aside time for and enjoy. I've seen in some other threads that the response vides from Mike/Sierra often take 5-20 days to come back and that they're more just general advice than specific tips and instructions based on the submitted video.

I have no doubt in their dedication to the platform or in the fact that they love an are passionate about teaching, I'm just saying that I can't imagine lesson response videos fall high on their priority list, and that their feedback is therefore likely less personalized and specifically tailored to your submission and more general feedback in the area of your practice.

Your instinct is wrong. Completely wrong. First of all each ArtistWorks “school” has a very detailed paced curriculum. Secondly the artists are extremely dedicated and the video responses is a priority. At various times I have been enrolled in the Mike Marshall, Bryan Sutton and Martin Taylor schools. Never had a response time exceed 2 weeks. You must realize that the vast majority of enrollees do not submit videos. These folks are missing out on the major benefit of the program in my opinion. The teachers encourage you to submit warts and all explaining it’s not about a perfect take as they realize clams vs. overall technique. Mike, Bryan and Martin are amazing teachers that really know how to get the best out of your level of play.


As far as video responses in every case the teacher replied to my inquiry in complete detail. Some examples:

asked Mike Marshall how to solo on Russian Lullaby. His response included a white board with chord analysis and a dissertation on how to link chord tones. I also asked Mike how to flesh out one of my own tunes….his response included him playing my tune back to me. A real treat.

I asked Bryan specifically about tuning for dropped D tuning on guitar; the nuance of it…Bryan replied with some great tips specifically about that.

My user name on ArtistWorks is surprise “Perry”…. any other interested in mandolin jazz improv should look up the aforementioned exchange on Russian Lullaby.

My only complaint for Artistworks is that the entire platform could use a rehaul technologically speaking. It is a bit cumbersome to navigate around. As a comparison I have found the TrueFire artist “channels” to be very user friendly.

[Simon DS]

[Perry]

deleted due to redundancy

[DaveGinNJ]

COMPLETELY agree.

But due to my limited time and resources, I can only subscribe to one for the time being. Just trying to figure out which to start with.

I would not over-think it. Pick one and immerse yourself in it. Starting of with more than one will probably be a bit overwhelming. Good luck

[keith.rogers]

...
My only complaint for Artistworks is that the entire platform could use a rehaul technologically speaking. It is a bit cumbersome to navigate around. ....

I was told (after submitting yet another bug report and suggestion for direly needed improvements) that the site is in the process of being rewritten. I really hope that it is done well, but having spent half my life in tech, I have to hold my breath on "totally new" software releases. The website can be slow and does waste a fair amount of time with really poor design flaws/omissions, especially with a teacher/class like Mike Marshall who has thousands and thousands of VEs. (I have no experience with TrueFire, their recent/new owner, so don't know if that company is bringing a good platform, or what. Fingers crossed...)

[Bryan Gerrells]

For zoom I’d recommend Nick Dumas. You can look him up on Facebook. He’s an amazing mandolinist and just as accomplished teacher.

[BillyEllison]

I just want to put this out there. I am looking into this myself. David Benedict has this thing he does with different levels, and it seems affordable. I think I am going to go this route.

https://www.patreon.com/davidbenedictmandolin