Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 48

Thread: Woke with a chord question

  1. #1
    Registered User John Bertotti's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    SD
    Posts
    3,592

    Default Woke with a chord question

    Couldnít sleep, been sitting here wondering. If you play a chord without the chords root is it still that chord? Does it become another chord or is the chord possibly suggested in the phrasing? I donít understand most of what I asked but had to ask. Woke up thinking about it but it feels over my head and the answers arenít even on yet! FWIW I have no example and donít know where these questions came from. They were in my head since I awoke. How odd is that, rhetorical question since Iím sure itís odd. Thanks for any insight!
    My avatar is of my OldWave Oval A

    Creativity is just doing something wierd and finding out others like it.

  2. #2
    bon vivant jaycat's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Boston, Mass.
    Posts
    2,700

    Default Re: Woke with a chord question

    Read all about it here. Perhaps more than you want to know.
    "The paths of experimentation twist and turn through mountains of miscalculations, and often lose themselves in error and darkness!"
    --Leslie Daniel, "The Brain That Wouldn't Die."

    Some tunes: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCa1...SV2qtug/videos

  3. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to jaycat For This Useful Post:


  4. #3
    Registered User John Bertotti's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    SD
    Posts
    3,592

    Default Re: Woke with a chord question

    I started reading it but can’t go in. The grey text on my phone is killing my eyes! I’ll dig in when I get to a. Computer, thanks for the link!
    My avatar is of my OldWave Oval A

    Creativity is just doing something wierd and finding out others like it.

  5. #4
    Registered User Steve Baker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    New Lenox IL
    Posts
    261

    Default Re: Woke with a chord question

    Questions like this can make my brain hurt! I tune my bouzouki to GDAD. Fretting only the A string at B yields GDBD, a G chord. If I strum only the top 3 strings I have a B as well as a G? It’ll certainly work in either direction. OK, time for the morning coffee.

  6. #5
    Registered User John Bertotti's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    SD
    Posts
    3,592

    Default Re: Woke with a chord question

    So dependent on who might be playing the missing note could change the chord?
    My avatar is of my OldWave Oval A

    Creativity is just doing something wierd and finding out others like it.

  7. #6
    bon vivant jaycat's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Boston, Mass.
    Posts
    2,700

    Default Re: Woke with a chord question

    That grey type is difficult to deal with. Try copying it all and pasting into a Word doc.
    "The paths of experimentation twist and turn through mountains of miscalculations, and often lose themselves in error and darkness!"
    --Leslie Daniel, "The Brain That Wouldn't Die."

    Some tunes: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCa1...SV2qtug/videos

  8. The following members say thank you to jaycat for this post:


  9. #7
    Registered User mbruno's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Seattle WA
    Posts
    706

    Default Re: Woke with a chord question

    Quote Originally Posted by John Bertotti View Post
    Couldn’t sleep, been sitting here wondering. If you play a chord without the chords root is it still that chord? Does it become another chord or is the chord possibly suggested in the phrasing? I don’t understand most of what I asked but had to ask. Woke up thinking about it but it feels over my head and the answers aren’t even on yet! FWIW I have no example and don’t know where these questions came from. They were in my head since I awoke. How odd is that, rhetorical question since I’m sure it’s odd. Thanks for any insight!
    Short answer is, depends on the context and if there are other players.

    Chords are any 3 notes played at the same time. So to do this, you'd have to playing a 4 note chord like a dom7 or similar. Take G7 (GBDF). Strictly speaking, if you don't play the Root G, you'd have BDF which is a B diminished chord. If you took it as DFB instead, you'd have a Dmin6 without the 5th. That said, the context of the song / tune you're playing will likely guide the ear to the proper chord sound / feel either due to the melody and/or the chords before / after the chord in question. Also, if you're playing with anyone else (like a bass player) and they play the root G, then you have the full G7 chord between the two of you.

    Why don't you take a song / tune you like and purposefully cut all the roots from the dom7 chords and see how that sounds. Might be interesting.
    Information on lessons, gigs, and misc musical stuff: www.mattcbruno.com
    Weekly free Mandolin Lessons: www.mattcbruno.com/weekly-posts/
    My gear and recommendations: www.mattcbruno.com/gear-recommendations/
    Cooking fun: www.mattcbruno.com/quarantine-cookbook/


    Mando's in use
    Primary: Newson 2018
    Secondary: Gibson F9 2014
    Primary Electric: Jonathan Mann OSEMdc 5

  10. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to mbruno For This Useful Post:


  11. #8
    Registered User DavidKOS's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Location
    North CA
    Posts
    4,685

    Default Re: Woke with a chord question

    I love this thread! and all the options of chordal theory

    However, there seems to be a wide range of understanding of chords and context, from beginner theory level to typical jazz knowledge.

    Chords are just harmonized scales...and scales imply and generate chords. Chickens and eggs.

    That said, melodic music can be harmonized, and often more than one way.

    Quote Originally Posted by mbruno View Post
    Short answer is, depends on the context and if there are other players.

    that's a good place to start.

  12. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to DavidKOS For This Useful Post:


  13. #9
    Oval holes are cool David Lewis's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Sydney, Australia
    Posts
    1,423

    Default Re: Woke with a chord question

    It’s all context. Technically an Em chord could be a Cmaj7/no root for example. The human brain has a capacity for ‘filling in’ the missing notes. So yes you can have a chord without the root.
    JBovier ELS; Epiphone MM-50 VN; Epiphone MM-40L; Gretsch New Yorker G9310; Washburn M1SDLB;

    Fender Nashville Deluxe Telecaster; Squier Modified Vintage Cabronita Telecaster; Gretsch 5420T; Fender Tim Armstrong Hellcat: Washburn Banjo B9; Ibanez RB 5string; Ibanez RB 4 string bass

    Pedalboard for ELS: Morley Cry baby Miniwah - Tuner - EHX Soul Food Overdrive - EHX Memory Toy analog Delay
    Fender Blues Jr Tweed; Fender Greta;

  14. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to David Lewis For This Useful Post:


  15. #10
    Registered User John Soper's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Durham, NC
    Posts
    1,311

    Default Re: Woke with a chord question

    Rootless chords are kinda like those knives in your kitchen. Are they for slicing a tomato, or murdering your spouse? Yes, it just depends on the preceding setting, the direction one is traveling, and the intent. I've used rootless chords to murder plenty of tunes!

  16. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to John Soper For This Useful Post:


  17. #11
    Registered User Bob Buckingham's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Greer, SC
    Posts
    766

    Default Re: Woke with a chord question

    Assuming you are playing with a guitar you are adding "ear candy" to what the guitar player is playing. So a three note combination has potential to extend the chord the guitar is playing. Chord voicings are one of the more fun things to do on mandolin.

  18. The following members say thank you to Bob Buckingham for this post:


  19. #12
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    S.W. Wisconsin
    Posts
    6,952

    Default Re: Woke with a chord question

    I use a lot of double stops for chords, not all have the root and it works just fine.
    THE WORLD IS A BETTER PLACE JUST FOR YOUR SMILE!

  20. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to pops1 For This Useful Post:


  21. #13

    Default Re: Woke with a chord question

    You are pretty deep into the mandolin if it is keeping you awake at night Leo Kottke told a story about a classical cello player who got so wound tight with his instrument that it started talking to him. So he busted his multi million dollar on loan cello into tiny pieces. Then the pieces started talking to him. He needed serious help. Don't let it bother you that much.

    Seriously though, your understanding is pretty spot on. We start out learning songs that THIS is THE chord progression cast in stone. The truth is there are a lot of options on chord progressions for a particular melody. That is especially true if you are playing by yourself. If you are playing with others some will not work because they may clash with what others are doing. But on the other side the accompanying instruments may open up possibilities that do not work when playing alone because they cover some of the pieces of the underlying chords. Jazz, especially since Be Bop focuses heavily on each of the single line instruments, like sax and horns building up a chord structure in relation to the rest of the band.

    A couple of examples how chords can function totally differently depending on context. The sixth chords and minor seventh chords will have the exact same tones in different order. What they are depends on context. To illustrate, C6 is spelled C-E-G-A. Am7 is spelled A-C-E-G, same notes. what they are and how they function depends on the movement and where they are. They may even have both functions in different parts of the same tune. I was looking at Tim Connell's music for All Of Me a couple days ago and it does exactly that with F6 and Dm7

    Another example that really opened up my understanding of this was a Gypsy jazz guitar video where the instructor showed a particular fingering of a m7b5 chord and demonstrated how, depending on context, this exact same fingering could be m7b5, half diminished, ninth or minor sixth chord. There may have been even a couple of other possibilities. It all depended on what the other players put underneath it and what the contours of the melody and chord progression were.

    Experiment and see what sounds good. Be prepared to drop stuff that does not work and keep the stuff that does. Have fun.

  22. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to CarlM For This Useful Post:


  23. #14
    The Amateur Mandolinist Mark Gunter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    South of Fort Worth, Texas
    Posts
    4,421

    Default Re: Woke with a chord question

    One I use frequently is the rootless 7 chord, example 2-1-3-x would be an F7 with no F note. I use the shape very, very frequently when playing a G7 or A7 or F7. For analogy, an F chord could be played as 2-3-3-5 Ö by lowering the F note a full step you get the 2-1-3-x.

    Since a diminished7 chord would be played 2-1-3-2, the shape 2-1-3-x can also serve as diminished chord depending on context. It is an awesome sounding (to me) partial chord to move around the neck.

    In the beginning, wrapping your head around rootless chords can seem a little strange, but the human ear and brain can supply missing harmony notes when playing a progression in context.

    Have fun with it.
    WWW.MARKGUNTER.NET
    Coming Soon: New site, The Amateur Mandolinist
    ----------------------------------
    "Life is short. Play hard." - AlanN

    ----------------------------------
    HEY! The Cafe has Social Groups, check 'em out. I'm in these groups:
    Newbies Social Group | The Song-A-Week Social
    The Woodshed Study Group | Blues Mando
    - Advice For Mandolin Beginners
    - YouTube Stuff

  24. The following members say thank you to Mark Gunter for this post:


  25. #15
    Registered User Pete Martin's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Seattle, WA
    Posts
    3,187

    Default Re: Woke with a chord question

    Rootless chords are VERY common in the jazz world.

    You need to know the music language you are speaking. Some styles like rooted voicings, some are OK with rootless voicings. YMMV
    -----------
    Pete Martin
    www.PeteMartin.info
    Jazz and Bluegrass instruction books, videos, articles, transcriptions, improvisation, ergonomics, free recordings, private lessons

    www.WoodAndStringsBand.com
    Jazz trio

  26. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Pete Martin For This Useful Post:


  27. #16
    Registered User Steve Baker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    New Lenox IL
    Posts
    261

    Default Re: Woke with a chord question

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Baker View Post
    Questions like this can make my brain hurt! I tune my bouzouki to GDAD. Fretting only the A string at B yields GDBD, a G chord. If I strum only the top 3 strings I have a B as well as a G? Itíll certainly work in either direction. OK, time for the morning coffee.
    I guess I should have had that coffee before posting. DBD makes a Bminor, not seen a whole lot in the stuff I play. Still, it makes for interesting experimentation in chord voicing that may be useful as well as fun.

  28. The following members say thank you to Steve Baker for this post:


  29. #17
    Registered User John Bertotti's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    SD
    Posts
    3,592

    Default Re: Woke with a chord question

    The real odd part is half the time O look for an answer I ask I get replies none of which make a lot of sense at first but down the road a bit something clicks and I start to get it. A lot of times I don’t fully understand where the question came from! I do appreciate the help and I will reread this thread many times over the coming months!
    My avatar is of my OldWave Oval A

    Creativity is just doing something wierd and finding out others like it.

  30. #18
    Registered User thesecretmandolinist's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2022
    Location
    Somewhere beyond the deep blue sea
    Posts
    179

    Default Re: Woke with a chord question

    chord names are kind of just guides. the name of the chord changes (even if the notes are the same) depending on the context used. dropping the root creates shells which can be applied over a variety of different roots. I prefer to think of chords as collections of intervals rather that specific notes.
    Apitius Grand Classic
    DíAddario EJ74ís
    Madura Triangular Tortoiseshell 1mm

    Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/c/bearplaysmandolin

  31. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to thesecretmandolinist For This Useful Post:


  32. #19
    Registered User lowtone2's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    lower alabama
    Posts
    786

    Default Re: Woke with a chord question

    The secret mandolinist has it right. Naming chords is really just a convenience, although it has become fairly standard. If your rootless Cminor7 chord satisfies the harmonic context, it doesn’t really matter whether you call it C-7 or an Edim triad.

    If you start playing jazz/swing chords on mandolin, you will be playing many chords that could be named more than one way.

  33. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to lowtone2 For This Useful Post:


  34. #20
    harvester of clams Bill McCall's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    Forest Grove, Oregon
    Posts
    2,463

    Default Re: Woke with a chord question

    I find that what matters to me is finding the correct rootless chord in an unfamiliar key at jam tempo is an enormously challenging task. While I know 3 shapes for rootless m7b5 chords, if they’re not preceded by the 1 chord in a ii-V-1 progression, I can be easily stumped.

    That’s the most common scenario for me to play a rootless chord, and I’m working on alternatives.
    Not all the clams are at the beach

    Arrow Jazzbo
    Arrow G
    Clark 2 point
    Gibson F5L
    Ratliff CountryBoy A
    00-21 (voiced by Eldon Stutzman)

  35. The following members say thank you to Bill McCall for this post:


  36. #21
    Registered User John Bertotti's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    SD
    Posts
    3,592

    Default Re: Woke with a chord question

    I posted the same question on a guitar forum and one of the inmates is explaining to me he thinks of everything in the terms of tone centers. I’m still wrapping my head around that. It does however seem useful if I can get to his level of proficiency.
    My avatar is of my OldWave Oval A

    Creativity is just doing something wierd and finding out others like it.

  37. The following members say thank you to John Bertotti for this post:


  38. #22
    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Westchester, NY
    Posts
    30,059

    Default Re: Woke with a chord question

    I am no theory expert but isn’t that the basis for chord substitution? In many cases I am guessing the theory nerds need to name the chords but we mortals just play what sounds right. So at that point it may just come down to why it works or what we call it.
    Jim

    My Stream on Soundcloud
    Facebook
    19th Century Tunes
    Playing lately:
    1924 Gibson A4 - 2018 Campanella A-5 - 2007 Brentrup A4C - 1915 Frank Merwin Ashley violin - Huss & Dalton DS - 1923 Gibson A2 black snakehead - '83 Flatiron A5-2 - 1939 Gibson L-00 - 1936 Epiphone Deluxe - 1928 Gibson L-5 - ca. 1890s Fairbanks Senator Banjo - ca. 1923 Vega Style M tenor banjo - ca. 1920 Weymann Style 25 Mandolin-Banjo - National RM-1

  39. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Jim Garber For This Useful Post:


  40. #23
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Posts
    140
    Blog Entries
    7

    Default Re: Woke with a chord question

    I'm enjoying reading everyone's individual take on this massive, important, thrilling and endless topic of chord voicings. Just wanted to chime in to quickly give my one and a half cents.

    Try not to confuse voicings with full chords. A chord might contain 4,5 or more specific notes. A voicing is when you grab a few notes from the chord and play em. That's all there is to it.

    Now, the notes you grab will have an impact on how much the voicing "says" the chord, but...a voicing doesn't NEED to have any of the notes in the chord. You can conceivably play a G7 without the root...or 3rd...or 5th...or 7th...and it MIGHT still sound like a G7. And that's the key!

    If a voicing offers the sound of the chord, its an effective voicing. Otherwise, replace it--it doesn't matter how theoretically correct or cool sounding it is on its own. The most important thing (for me) is if the voicing is effective in the context of the progression. If you keep that in mind, it opens up all sorts of possibilities. You can even play one note (hello, bass lines) to represent a chord(s). If it's enough to hear the harmonic movement within the progression, you're good to go!

    Again, a voicing is simply a representation of the chord. BUT...don't underestimate the "Jethro Burns 3-note voicings". (I'm not clear if he "invented" these voicings or was "just" the first person to show everyone how brilliant they were). And omg, they sound great on the instrument and offer unlimited options and variations.

    Happy playing and happy thanksgiving!

  41. The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to AaronWeinstein For This Useful Post:


  42. #24

    Default Re: Woke with a chord question

    Quote Originally Posted by lowtone2 View Post
    If your rootless Cminor7 chord satisfies the harmonic context, it doesn’t really matter whether you call it C-7 or an Edim triad.

    If you start playing jazz/swing chords on mandolin, you will be playing many chords that could be named more than one way.
    The notes in a rootless Cm7 are Eb, G, Bb. That is an Eb major chord, not an Edim triad.

  43. The following members say thank you to David L for this post:


  44. #25
    Registered User lowtone2's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    lower alabama
    Posts
    786

    Default Re: Woke with a chord question

    True. Somehow I started thinking E.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •