Results 1 to 10 of 10

Thread: Early Gibson F-4 mandolins with both carved and arch tops?

  1. #1
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Atlanta, Georgia
    Posts
    40

    Default Early Gibson F-4 mandolins with both carved and arch tops?

    I was looking at the current inventory on the Retrofret site. 1913 and 1917 F-4s are described to to have carved tops. Two different 1922 F-4s are both described to have arch tops. Were there different manufacture processes for these short scale scrolled instruments during the teens and twenties?

  2. #2
    Registered User Mike Buesseler's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Whitefish,MT
    Posts
    1,719

    Default Re: Early Gibson F-4 mandolins with both carved and arch tops?

    I think you get the arch by carving. Carving = arched.

  3. #3
    Registered User Charles E.'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Saint Augustine Beach FL
    Posts
    6,618

    Default Re: Early Gibson F-4 mandolins with both carved and arch tops?

    They are the same thing using two different terms. The tops and backs are carved from a thicker piece of wood (as opposed to a flat top) to produce an arch, like a violin.
    Charley

    A bunch of stuff with four strings

  4. #4
    Teacher, repair person
    Join Date
    Oct 2017
    Location
    Southeast Tennessee
    Posts
    4,071

    Default Re: Early Gibson F-4 mandolins with both carved and arch tops?

    While Retrofret could have been more precise with their choice of words, in this case they both mean the same thing.

    Gibson changed buildings in 1917, but the manufacturing processes remained pretty much the same on their A and F style mandolins well into the 1920's. The biggest change during the period would have been the introduction of the truss rod in the early 20's, and the advent of lacquer sometime during the mid to late 20's. During the 1930's, the build and finish is often quite a bit heavier than the teens and twenties.

    Technically speaking, the words "arched" and "carved" are not necessarily interchangeable, since not all arched instruments are carved; but all Gibson's teens and 20's A's and F's were carved.

  5. The following members say thank you to rcc56 for this post:


  6. #5
    Registered User j. condino's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Asheville, NC
    Posts
    2,754

    Default Re: Early Gibson F-4 mandolins with both carved and arch tops?

    Additionally, you can induce an arch on a flat plate using heat and or steam and or pressure. You can also laminate an arch.

    With larger retail operations it becomes a somewhat curious game of creative embellishment: How do I place another descriptive advertisement for a cool old mandolin without sounding like I just cut and pasted the text for the last 65 of that model that we sold?

    The late Stan Jay from Mandolin Brothers was a master at crafting delightful stories intertwined with humor and delicious descriptions of the wonderful old instruments that he sold. Being a New York business, it would be almost impossible to not be influenced by his history and style. I'm not alone when I say I miss Stan....
    www.condino.com

    Crafted by hand in a workshop powered by the sun.

  7. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to j. condino For This Useful Post:


  8. #6

    Default Re: Early Gibson F-4 mandolins with both carved and arch tops?

    The scale length is the same as any modern or even older Gibson mandolin. Yes the bridge is in a different position but the scale is the same.

  9. #7
    Registered User Hendrik Ahrend's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Leer, Northern Germany
    Posts
    1,553

    Default Re: Early Gibson F-4 mandolins with both carved and arch tops?

    Quote Originally Posted by j. condino View Post
    The late Stan Jay from Mandolin Brothers was a master at crafting delightful stories intertwined with humor and delicious descriptions of the wonderful old instruments that he sold. Being a New York business, it would be almost impossible to not be influenced by his history and style. I'm not alone when I say I miss Stan....
    So true. And Stan never failed to draw some connection to Lloyd Loar whenever he described any old 1925-42 Gibson mandolin.

  10. The following members say thank you to Hendrik Ahrend for this post:


  11. #8
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Corinth, VT
    Posts
    155

    Default Re: Early Gibson F-4 mandolins with both carved and arch tops?

    [QUOTE The biggest change during the period would have been the introduction of the truss rod in the early 20's, and the advent of lacquer sometime during the mid to late 20's. End Quote)

    IMO, the other changes to consider is the way Gibson changed(and improved, IMO) the arching, and maybe the graduations, of their mandolins, between 1900 and 1921 or so(before Loar arrived), and the neck angle(which will affect the bridge height).

    I have not taken any measurements, but visually comparing the top carve(and recurve), neck angle, and bridge height between my 1921 A, and a 1913 F-2 I owned last year, I could see the differences. The '21 A had superior tone and volume. Admittedly a limited sample, but I've handled others in my repair work. Also, from my experience playing and repair vintage archtop guitars, a bridge that is too low(i.e. from being shaved to avoid a neck reset) is a tone and volume killer.

    I think Gibson and it's employees were 'figuring it out' in that 21 year period.

  12. #9
    Registered User Sue Rieter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2020
    Location
    New Hampshire
    Posts
    1,979

    Default Re: Early Gibson F-4 mandolins with both carved and arch tops?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Richard View Post
    [QUOTE The biggest change during the period would have been the introduction of the truss rod in the early 20's, and the advent of lacquer sometime during the mid to late 20's. End Quote)

    IMO, the other changes to consider is the way Gibson changed(and improved, IMO) the arching, and maybe the graduations, of their mandolins, between 1900 and 1921 or so(before Loar arrived), and the neck angle(which will affect the bridge height).

    I have not taken any measurements, but visually comparing the top carve(and recurve), neck angle, and bridge height between my 1921 A, and a 1913 F-2 I owned last year, I could see the differences. The '21 A had superior tone and volume. Admittedly a limited sample, but I've handled others in my repair work. Also, from my experience playing and repair vintage archtop guitars, a bridge that is too low(i.e. from being shaved to avoid a neck reset) is a tone and volume killer.

    I think Gibson and it's employees were 'figuring it out' in that 21 year period.
    That '21 A must sound pretty darned good
    "To be obsessed with the destination is to remove the focus from where you are." Philip Toshio Sudo, Zen Guitar

  13. The following members say thank you to Sue Rieter for this post:


  14. #10

    Default Re: Early Gibson F-4 mandolins with both carved and arch tops?

    Another change was the spacing between the tuners. Don't know why this was done but it appears it was done in 1924. When Stewmac sell Golden Age repro tuners they have two styles. Pre 1924 and 1924 onwards.

Bookmarks

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •