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Thread: I cant remember if learning guitar was this hard

  1. #1
    small instrument, big fun Dan in NH's Avatar
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    Default I cant remember if learning guitar was this hard

    Ive only been playing mandolin seriously for a few months now. Still very much a beginner.

    I can pick a few single note melodies reasonably well. And I can strum a few open major, minor, and dom7 chords reasonably well. And I can chop root-3rd & root-5th double stops up & down the neck reasonably well.

    And then I try to do movable chord forms, and everything falls apart.

    Im currently hopeless at the 4-finger Monroe chop chords. At the moment Im not ever working on them.

    So Im working on the 3-finger version. I-IV-V progressions up and down the neck. Flat the 3rd a half step and throw in some ii & vi chords.

    The method book Im currently working out of has barre forms of the open C & G chords - Major, minor, and dom7 forms. So Im trying I-IV-V7-ii-vi progressions using those forms.

    And Im making all the typical beginner mistakes. And feeling all the typical beginner discouragement.

    Ive only been playing guitar seriously for a few years, so I remember how long it took me to play all the cowboy chords with all the different qualities in all the different keys, making the changes smoothly and in time with the songs I wanted to play along to.

    But Im starting to think that mandolin is actually a lot HARDER.

    Is it really? I kind of remember just starting and playing scales and scales for WEEKS trying to get decent single note melody tone. Is mandolin rhythm playing harder than playing rhythm guitar?
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    Registered User tjmangum's Avatar
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    Default Re: I cant remember if learning guitar was this hard

    Sounds like you are making great progress. As a long time guitar player, short time mandolin player, I don't think you can really compare the two. Both have strings and frets but are played differently and have their own unique challenges IMHO. Good luck!
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    Default Re: I cant remember if learning guitar was this hard

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan in NH View Post
    I’ve only been playing mandolin seriously for a few months now. Still very much a beginner.

    I can pick a few single note melodies reasonably well. And I can strum a few open major, minor, and dom7 chords reasonably well. And I can chop root-3rd & root-5th double stops up & down the neck reasonably well.

    And then I try to do movable chord forms, and everything falls apart.

    I’m currently hopeless at the 4-finger Monroe chop chords. At the moment I’m not ever working on them.

    So I’m working on the 3-finger version. I-IV-V progressions up and down the neck. Flat the 3rd a half step and throw in some ii & vi chords.

    The method book I’m currently working out of has barre forms of the open C & G chords - Major, minor, and dom7 forms. So I’m trying I-IV-V7-ii-vi progressions using those forms.

    And I’m making all the typical beginner mistakes. And feeling all the typical beginner discouragement.

    I’ve only been playing guitar seriously for a few years, so I remember how long it took me to play all the cowboy chords with all the different qualities in all the different keys, making the changes smoothly and in time with the songs I wanted to play along to.

    But I’m starting to think that mandolin is actually a lot HARDER.

    Is it really? I kind of remember just starting and playing scales and scales for WEEKS trying to get decent single note melody tone. Is mandolin rhythm playing harder than playing rhythm guitar?
    I took a swing at mandolin probably a dozen years ago or so, and thought it would be fairly straightforward, since I knew my way around the fiddle a little bit. But, after a couple weeks of playing fiddle tunes, it started to sink in that the mandolin is not really like the fiddle or the guitar, unless, perhaps, you stick to fiddle tunes or open chord strumming. (Which is a place to start, actually, if you really spend time and get adept at it.) Anyway, I got frustrated, and put the mandolin in the case, where it sat until I sold it a few years later. I had to re-tackle it when I had time and interest in really figuring out what it takes, and finding out where I could go. There's only so much that transfers, especially if you're not fully competent in scales and harmony or don't have a terrific "ear" - at least that's IMHO, as they say.

    It does take more finger strength, and if you're like many guitar players, you probably ignored the pinky finger as much as possible. While you can get away with it to some extent on mandolin, building up strength (and accuracy) with every one of your fingers will make playing easier, especially those 4-string chop forms. It is 8 strings, after all, and there's a good amount of tension.

    I still do some exercises - more or less like the "finger-busters" from Mike Marshall and right hand/cross-picking stuff, as well as playing scales that require all 4 fingers. I found taking online lessons very useful, since it presented a challenge in small bits with some design in adding skills in a way that progress, while still slow, did happen. Could be a personal lack of discipline, or some ADD that persists many years past retirement now, but if you're not following some kind of "method," that's my suggestion.
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    small instrument, big fun Dan in NH's Avatar
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    Default Re: I cant remember if learning guitar was this hard

    Yes, I do plan to start taking lessons after the first of the year. In the meantime I try to make myself remember all the weeks and months I spent practicing my guitar chord changes before I had them down smoothly, and then Im making myself practice mandolin chord changes.

    Its just frustrating doing something and being so BAD at it. I have to keep reminding myself that Im still a beginner, and it is unrealistic to expect to sound any way other than like a beginner.

  8. #5
    small instrument, big fun Dan in NH's Avatar
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    Default Re: I cant remember if learning guitar was this hard

    And I have a collection of method books that Im using.

    The primary one Im working from is Mandolin From Scratch by Bruce Emery. I have used his guitar, bass, and ukulele From Scratch books, as well as his Music Principles for the Skeptical Guitarist I&II. I highly recommend them. I think his mandolin book is the best of the lot. Im mostly working from this.

    I also have The American Mandolin Method I&II by Brian Wicklund. And the instructor Im in touch with told me he uses The Complete Mandolin Method by Greg Horne.

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    The Amateur Mandolinist Mark Gunter's Avatar
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    Default Re: I cant remember if learning guitar was this hard

    More difficult than guitar? Sort of depends, I think. Each has unique challenges, all of which can be overcome with solid practice.

    On mandolin, theres a lot less room so one unique challenge is getting clean chords in a tight space. Learning to cleanly barre two courses of strings with one fingertip is another. Dealing with string tension of two short scale courses is another.

    Youre doing great, keep at it.

    Check out my page on movable chord shapes here: https://theamateurmandolinist.com/20...-chord-shapes/
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    Registered User Charlie Bernstein's Avatar
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    Default Re: I cant remember if learning guitar was this hard

    Great answers above. This is just me, not necessarily what others have found:

    1. The mando fretboard layout is logical, so I've discovered basic facts about scales that had never occurred to me as a guitar player. It also means that chord shapes are regular and repeat themselves throughout the fretboard, with no exceptions.

    So in that sense, mando is easier. You're right, though, four-finger chops are killers. Thank God there's more to play on mando than bluegrass!

    2. While many jazz and classical guitarists play "open-hand" scales, meaning they span seven frets when playing single note runs, most other guitarists play "closed-hand" scales, meaning our fret span is five frets. And five won't cut it on mando. So you have to get used to thinking in terms of seven fret spans, not five.

    Of course, the frets are closer together, which should make up for it. But the real issue isn't physical distance, it's how our brains are oriented. So that seven-fret span has been terribly hard for me to get a handle on.

    3. In one important respect, playing mando is more like playing electric guitar than acoustic guitar. Like an electric guitar, a mando is mainly an ensemble instrument, not usually played solo. And your attitude has to reflect that, sometimes hanging way back, sometimes digging in hell-for-leather.

    That's what I know. Or think I know. Let's see what others say.
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    Registered User Ky Slim's Avatar
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    Default Re: I cant remember if learning guitar was this hard

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan in NH View Post
    Is mandolin rhythm playing harder than playing rhythm guitar?
    This is a good question and the answer depends on you and your goals. Many a guitarist has grabbed a mandolin, learned some 2 finger chords, played a few simple strummy songs that they know on guitar and then concluded that the mandolin in easier. Chances are those guitarists aren't doing much more than the minimum with guitar either.

    Sounds like you have a good work ethic, a good outlook and are aiming at achieving more than the minimum. Congrats and Good Luck!

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    Innocent Bystander JeffD's Avatar
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    Default Re: I cant remember if learning guitar was this hard

    My experience is that everything I don't know is really hard, while everything I have learned seems easy, or at least not troublesome. I would bet that if you went after something new on guitar, finger picking way up the neck, or learning to play in P4 tuning, you would find it just as hard.
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    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: I cant remember if learning guitar was this hard

    What I remember about learning stringed instruments is combining working on them by myself along with playing with others. Sometimes we hold off on doing that until, we think, we are ready and otherwise might be too embarrassed. If at all possible find some friends or friendly folks who are at the same general level as you are musically. They can be mandolin players or (just as good) players learning other instruments. This adds fun and gives you some sort of goal plus is adds to your technique as well. It is very hard to learn on your own without playing with others. And some folks you find could be up a level or two from you but might be great to get some tips from. If there is a local slow session that is open to beginners, all the better.
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    small instrument, big fun Dan in NH's Avatar
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    Default Re: I cant remember if learning guitar was this hard

    I have a monthly barn jam that I attend.

    We sit in a circle and take turns calling songs. Mostly CCR, Jimmy Buffet, Hank Williams, & Johnny Cash. A lot of blues. Whoever called the song leads the group in playing & singing. Then we pass solos around the circle. Wrap up the number, and then the next person calls a song.

    Most of the other players are MUCH better that me. But they are a very welcoming and encouraging group.

    For months Id just pass when it was my turn. Hell, for the longest time I didnt even play with a pick. Id just lightly strum with my fingers so no one would hear how badly I played.

    Eventually I got more skilled and more confident. Now Ill call & lead songs, although I still dont solo.

    My goal right now is to get good enough on mandolin so I can accompany the group with it. Eventually Id like to be able to accompany myself on mandolin singing CCR & Hank Williams. And Id like to be able to take a solo.

    Thats what is prompting me to start mandolin lessons in January.

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    Default Re: I cant remember if learning guitar was this hard

    I can kind of speak to this directly, as at the start of the pandemic I bought a cheap mandolin and a cheap guitar and set off to learn both at the same time. Which I now realize was a very naive thing to do! I definitely took the mandolin much more easily. I don't think it's because the mandolin is easier to play or learn, it was just so much easier for me to make sense of a logical tuning and fingerboard. You can play every chord you'll ever encounter with just a handful of shapes. Barre chords and chop chords require strength and dexterity, but not a ton of mental struggle. I found it much easier to pick up speed more quickly on the mandolin too given the smaller size and once you have the mode of first position playing set, you can pretty much play any tune you'd like in seven frets and 4 (sets of) strings (really only needing the pinky for the B note on the E string because you can play the other 7th fret notes on open strings).

    The guitar took more getting used to it. I found it far less intuitive and easier to get all jumbled up in the midst of 6 strings. Many more shapes to learn for chords (open ones at least) and then trying to remember where to capo for which keys and what chord a c-shape is with the capo on the second fret, etc. I do think it's easier to make a good clean sound on a guitar, and now that I've somewhat mastered barre chords, moving around is easier than with the open chords. But just with the size, if I can play a melody at say 90 or 100 bpm on the mandolin, I'm lucky if I can play it at 65 on the guitar, and it's about the same for rhythm too, again because it's just so few shapes that you need to know to play most basic songs. With the mandolin you need finger dexterity which apparently I have, with the guitar it seems more wrist and maybe even elbow and shoulder, which I appear to not have as well.

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    Default Re: I cant remember if learning guitar was this hard

    "Most of the other players are MUCH better that me. But they are a very welcoming and encouraging group",

    while its not all of it - that sentence has a lot to do with where you are now and the places you can go, I fully agree the best way to get better at a musical instrument is to be lucky enough to play along with better musicians than yourself.

    Going from guitar to mandolin, a lot of my guitar technique crossed over and I never took any kind of mandolin lesson until at least 10 years or so into it.
    I also did not listen to Monroe or any of the other big BG influencers like J.D. Crow and the New South, Flatt and Scruggs, Stanley Brothers or Jimmy Martin, so my mandolin playing was never "recognizably" bluegrass.
    Sounds like you are on the right track and don't worry those chop chords will come over time, I think most of all don't be afraid to play fast music at slow tempos, it can be challenging at first, but for me anyway has really helped with "live performance" and being able to improvise off standard melodies.
    and if you don't already, a metronome is a great investment, especially if you actually practice with it!
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    not a donut Kevin Winn's Avatar
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    Default Re: I cant remember if learning guitar was this hard

    Well, I learned to play guitar in my teens back in the 70's, before computers, where there was a lot of sitting next to the turntable and lifting/replacing the needle on the section of a song over and over, trying to sound like Jimmy Page. I had a couple chord books, but back then we had to figure out the key of a song by trial/ear. Not much memory of how hard that was, but it sure was a good way to get the basics drilled in.

    When I started mandolin a few years ago, there was/is much more available in the form on online resources (shoutout to mandolessons.com) that made the process much easier. That said, it wasn't until I stopped thinking of the mandolin in terms of the guitar that I started making real progress. And playing with others (both at your own level and above) is still the best way to improve, even with the occasional train-wreck solo break. I'm never as good as I want to be, but I am usually better than I fear...

    One hint for getting the Monroe chop chords down: start with one a little higher up the neck, like an A or even a C chord. The pinky reach is much more doable even a few frets up from the standard G. Once you've got those, start moving back down until you get to the G chord. And make sure your left (fretting) hand is not positioned like it would be with a guitar (i.e., fingers perpendicular to the strings).

    Most of all, keep at it!
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    Default Re: I cant remember if learning guitar was this hard

    I played guitar for 14 years and though I got to the point of being a decent accompanist and an ok flatpicker, I never made as much progress as I did in less years of fiddle or mandolin playing. It IS less logical and intuitive for sure, though it does have that a bit more open tunings. Last weekend, 16 years after giving it up for good, I got a cheapie parlor guitar just to have kicking around for guests. I had a go on it and it was *almost* like starting all over again. My brain and left hand are somewhat imprinted after 25 years of playing GDAE instruments. When I started on fiddle, then mandolin, I was playing backing gigs for a lot of folks, so it was easy to keep making progress with the years of guitar under my belt (without as much practice), but now I'm not so sure I'll ever get it all back (especially with most of my available playing time devoted to the fiddle and mandolin by choice). The struggle is real...

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    harvester of clams Bill McCall's Avatar
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    Default Re: I cant remember if learning guitar was this hard

    Lots of good advice here, hopefully this is a little more.

    Be patient with yourself. Its hard to be born full grown, so let it come to you a bit.

    As mentioned earlier, chop chords are easier in higher positions, so start around B, and play the I-IV-V, but start with just I-IV. Then IV, V. Then I-IV-V. I think biting off I-IV-V-ii-V is a lot when you're just starting and struggling with fingerings.

    For soloing, start by just playing the melody, or as close as you can figure it out on the fly. Nobody gets pushed out of a jam for playing too much melody. You can then learn to embellish them.

    Its a long process, and everybody is somewhere on that journey. Try your best, smile and dare to suck. No notes or ears will be harmed.

    And have fun
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    Default Re: I cant remember if learning guitar was this hard

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill McCall View Post
    Lots of good advice here, hopefully this is a little more.

    Be patient with yourself. Its hard to be born full grown, so let it come to you a bit.

    As mentioned earlier, chop chords are easier in higher positions, so start around B, and play the I-IV-V, but start with just I-IV. Then IV, V. Then I-IV-V. I think biting off I-IV-V-ii-V is a lot when you're just starting and struggling with fingerings.

    For soloing, start by just playing the melody, or as close as you can figure it out on the fly. Nobody gets pushed out of a jam for playing too much melody. You can then learn to embellish them.

    Its a long process, and everybody is somewhere on that journey. Try your best, smile and dare to suck. No notes or ears will be harmed.

    And have fun
    Well put. This is a similar approach to how I do things with some of my students depending on their level. I'm not well versed at putting it in concise written form yet though!

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    Default Re: I cant remember if learning guitar was this hard

    Also, don't underestimate the power (though it CAN feel tedious sometimes) of scale and arpeggio exercises. These are key to being able to start mapping the fretboard for yourself and training your fingers to fall where you want them to. This applies to both, though it does come easier to many on mando vs guitar. Like Bill said, only add chord changes as you nail the first ones. And stop where you go wrong sometimes rather than skipping on. It's a lot easier to correct mistakes and/or bad habits if you catch them in the act and work through it. It's natural to just want to play and keep going, but we learn best in smaller bites.

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    Default Re: I cant remember if learning guitar was this hard

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan in NH View Post
    Ive only been playing mandolin seriously for a few months now. Still very much a beginner.

    I can pick a few single note melodies reasonably well. And I can strum a few open major, minor, and dom7 chords reasonably well. And I can chop root-3rd & root-5th double stops up & down the neck reasonably well.

    And then I try to do movable chord forms, and everything falls apart.

    Im currently hopeless at the 4-finger Monroe chop chords. At the moment Im not ever working on them.

    So Im working on the 3-finger version. I-IV-V progressions up and down the neck. Flat the 3rd a half step and throw in some ii & vi chords.

    The method book Im currently working out of has barre forms of the open C & G chords - Major, minor, and dom7 forms. So Im trying I-IV-V7-ii-vi progressions using those forms.

    And Im making all the typical beginner mistakes. And feeling all the typical beginner discouragement.

    Ive only been playing guitar seriously for a few years, so I remember how long it took me to play all the cowboy chords with all the different qualities in all the different keys, making the changes smoothly and in time with the songs I wanted to play along to.

    But Im starting to think that mandolin is actually a lot HARDER.

    Is it really? I kind of remember just starting and playing scales and scales for WEEKS trying to get decent single note melody tone. Is mandolin rhythm playing harder than playing rhythm guitar?
    It took me months to play chop chords well. I just did it few several minutes every day starting off really slow. Sounds to me like you are progressing just fine

  26. #20
    === High Strung === gfury's Avatar
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    Default Re: I cant remember if learning guitar was this hard

    Regarding the chop chords, I thought I would never get fluid with them (especially switching between the I and V). But I remembered how hard it was to make, and switch to, the open G chord on guitar.

    During the pandemic lockdown, I stepped up my effort, and can now play these chords with good tone, and switch between I and V while keeping my pinky in place. I'm 60 years old, and I actually learned a new skill. You can do it.

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    Registered User Charlie Bernstein's Avatar
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    Default Re: I cant remember if learning guitar was this hard

    Quote Originally Posted by keith.rogers View Post
    . . . if you're like many guitar players, you probably ignored the pinky finger as much as possible. . . .
    On guitar, I use my left pinky as much as I use the other three. I thought everyone did.

    So I was recently astonished (and more than a little infuriated) to watch a video close-up of Clapton soloing and see that he doesn't use his pinky at all.

    I guess if Django could do it, anyone can. But Django had to!
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    Default Re: I cant remember if learning guitar was this hard

    If what you're doing with guitar is strumming 'open' chords on the first few frets, then mndln may indeed present difficulty in comparison. But if you're studying the total instrument (what used to be termed, the 'serious student') the guitar offers vastly more polyphony, vastly more technique options - and therefore that much more 'difficulty' wrt to pedagogy.

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    Registered User Charlie Bernstein's Avatar
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    Default Re: I cant remember if learning guitar was this hard

    PS -

    For what it's worth (the paper it's printed on?), I've been playing guitar for over fifty years and am still learning how.

    Sure hope mando doesn't take that long!

    - - - Updated - - -

    PS -

    For what it's worth (the paper it's printed on?), I've been playing guitar for over fifty years and am still learning how.j

    Hope mando doesn't take that long!
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  31. #24
    Registered User Charlie Bernstein's Avatar
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    Default Re: I cant remember if learning guitar was this hard

    Quote Originally Posted by catmandu2 View Post
    . . . But if you're studying the total instrument (what used to be termed, the 'serious student') . . . .
    Oxymoron alert!
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    Default Re: I cant remember if learning guitar was this hard

    Firstly, playing the guitar is EASY, very easy. It just takes a long time to figure out how easy it is to just pick it up and play whatever comes into your head.
    There are 10 kinds of people in the world, those that understand binary and those that don't.

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