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Thread: Ermelinda Silvestri - Needs help!

  1. #1

    Default Ermelinda Silvestri - Needs help!

    Hello-

    Can you help me identify this Ermelinda Silvestri? I believe it to be around 1900ish. It came from a relative who immigrated from Italy in around 1910, and who passed away in the early 1970s. It's been sitting since

    Obviously it is in pretty rough condition. Does anyone know what model it is?

    1. Can this be saved/restored?
    2. Any idea of the value as is, or restored?

    Thank you!
    Click image for larger version. 

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  3. #2

    Default Re: Ermelinda Silvestri - Needs help!

    Is there a Silvestri label inside? I think the ornate tailpiece is not original- it appears to be an American style tailpiece with that ornate cover added.

    Edit: The ornate tailpiece cover may have been original but the tailpiece broke and the tailpiece seen was a replacement while the original lyre style part was joined to the sleeve from the replacement.
    Last edited by NickR; Aug-25-2022 at 1:31pm.

  4. #3

    Default Re: Ermelinda Silvestri - Needs help!

    Quote Originally Posted by NickR View Post
    Is there a Silvestri label inside? I think the ornate tailpiece is not original- it appears to be an American style tailpiece with that ornate cover added.
    Yes. That's the only way I could tell what it is.

    I'm not from a mandolin background and don't know anything about them. I tried to look online, but there isn't much on the older stuff.

    The mandolin came with an awesome pre-war gibson banjo guitar that is stunning.

  5. #4
    Full Grown and Cussin' brunello97's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ermelinda Silvestri - Needs help!

    Quote Originally Posted by NickR View Post
    Is there a Silvestri label inside? I think the ornate tailpiece is not original- it appears to be an American style tailpiece with that ornate cover added.

    Edit: The ornate tailpiece cover may have been original but the tailpiece broke and the tailpiece seen was a replacement while the original lyre style part was joined to the sleeve from the replacement.
    I have some Silvestri mandolins in my files with some rather ornate tailpieces, such as the one attached.

    Cawhite...from my limited vantage point of about a dozen Silvestri mandolins, it appeared they, like other Catanese makers, were enthusiastic copiers of popular styles from Rome and Naples but usually with a delightful Sicilian flair.

    From what I've seen they didn't have 'models' such as we are used to with contemporary US mandolins, or some of the bigger name Italian makers from the period.

    Yours has a hybrid collection of design details: the V-shaped neck profile and slotted headstock from Roman mandolins and the carved "head" which one sees on some Neapolitan Vinaccia mandolins, as well as others.

    The double banded top inlay is a typical Sicilan feature as is the exuberant scratchplate.

    Silvestri used various labels on the mandolins, some touting their connection to Roma.
    These appear to have an earlier / older looking graphic layout and type font styles.

    I would suggest the more colorful labels are later models given the style and type fonts used.

    Can you post a photo of the label in yours?

    It looks like a good quality mandolin, though the photos you posted make an assessment of its condition a little difficult.

    The small bits of restoration of missing pieces of mother of pearl, etc. shouldn't be a big deal.

    The value ...outside the sentimental value, such as this must have for you in abundance...will be totally based on its playability.

    And that is almost entirely based on the condition of the neck.

    Can you post some carefull taken photos showing a SIDE view of the mandolin where we can see the position of the strings relative to the neck?

    Also a shot looking down along the neck from the headstock / tuners to the bridge / lower end of the mandolin.

    And then a shot looking in the opposited direction, looking UP the neck.

    These will be very helpful to ascertain the playability.

    And, obviously, some better shots of the carved head, a great feature of the mandolin.

    Maybe $100 if unplayable, maybe $1000 if playable? Perhaps more in a 'restored' state with all bling replace.

    For a good while, the market for Italian mandolins was quite active in Japan, and may well still be.

    Any estimate of value is totally subjective, if not a wild guess, as there isn't a large market for bowlback mandolins, and an even smaller one for those that are unplayable...there are hundreds if not thousands of unplayable Italian bowlback mandolins out there.

    Silvestri wasn't one of the big names in Italian mandolins and many folks interested in bowlback mandolins tend to sniff at Sicilian instruments (which, to the contrary, I very much enjoy.)

    This is a nice mandolin, for sure, so keep the photos coming.


    Mick
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

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  7. #5

    Default Re: Ermelinda Silvestri - Needs help!

    This Ermelinda Silvestri mandolin sold in the UK recently for very little. I estimate it as from about 1930 but yours- looking at its neck construction is earlier. You can see it also has an elaborate tailpiece but all original. It also has a solid headstock which is more typical. It looked like a nice instrument and it was in my opinion in quite good condition- from the photos, but may have issues once in one's hands for a close inspection.

    https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Vintage-M...p2047675.l2557

  8. #6

    Default Re: Ermelinda Silvestri - Needs help!

    Quote Originally Posted by brunello97 View Post
    I have some Silvestri mandolins in my files with some rather ornate tailpieces, such as the one attached.

    Cawhite...from my limited vantage point of about a dozen Silvestri mandolins, it appeared they, like other Catanese makers, were enthusiastic copiers of popular styles from Rome and Naples but usually with a delightful Sicilian flair.

    From what I've seen they didn't have 'models' such as we are used to with contemporary US mandolins, or some of the bigger name Italian makers from the period.

    Yours has a hybrid collection of design details: the V-shaped neck profile and slotted headstock from Roman mandolins and the carved "head" which one sees on some Neapolitan Vinaccia mandolins, as well as others.

    The double banded top inlay is a typical Sicilan feature as is the exuberant scratchplate.

    Silvestri used various labels on the mandolins, some touting their connection to Roma.
    These appear to have an earlier / older looking graphic layout and type font styles.

    I would suggest the more colorful labels are later models given the style and type fonts used.

    Can you post a photo of the label in yours?

    It looks like a good quality mandolin, though the photos you posted make an assessment of its condition a little difficult.

    The small bits of restoration of missing pieces of mother of pearl, etc. shouldn't be a big deal.

    The value ...outside the sentimental value, such as this must have for you in abundance...will be totally based on its playability.

    And that is almost entirely based on the condition of the neck.

    Can you post some carefull taken photos showing a SIDE view of the mandolin where we can see the position of the strings relative to the neck?

    Also a shot looking down along the neck from the headstock / tuners to the bridge / lower end of the mandolin.

    And then a shot looking in the opposited direction, looking UP the neck.

    These will be very helpful to ascertain the playability.

    And, obviously, some better shots of the carved head, a great feature of the mandolin.

    Maybe $100 if unplayable, maybe $1000 if playable? Perhaps more in a 'restored' state with all bling replace.

    For a good while, the market for Italian mandolins was quite active in Japan, and may well still be.

    Any estimate of value is totally subjective, if not a wild guess, as there isn't a large market for bowlback mandolins, and an even smaller one for those that are unplayable...there are hundreds if not thousands of unplayable Italian bowlback mandolins out there.

    Silvestri wasn't one of the big names in Italian mandolins and many folks interested in bowlback mandolins tend to sniff at Sicilian instruments (which, to the contrary, I very much enjoy.)

    This is a nice mandolin, for sure, so keep the photos coming.


    Mick
    Thank you so much for all of this info!

    I have a few pics here of the label attached. It's difficult to get a good shot in the room I was in due to the low light.

    I will take more pictures, but the mandolin is in a condition that is completely unplayable. Borderline destroyed. The top is separating from the body in some areas, and the binding is peeling off almost like used tape. Would love to get it restored. It looks like it would sound amazing.

    It does have what looks to be the original leather hard case. It's also very ornate. I can get some pics of that too.Click image for larger version. 

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  9. #7
    Full Grown and Cussin' brunello97's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ermelinda Silvestri - Needs help!

    Quote Originally Posted by NickR View Post
    This Ermelinda Silvestri mandolin sold in the UK recently for very little. I estimate it as from about 1930 but yours- looking at its neck construction is earlier. You can see it also has an elaborate tailpiece but all original. It also has a solid headstock which is more typical. It looked like a nice instrument and it was in my opinion in quite good condition- from the photos, but may have issues once in one's hands for a close inspection.

    https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Vintage-M...p2047675.l2557
    This one I would put in the "unplayable" category, perhaps even when the "Silvestri" brand was being used on a far more ordinary range of instruments.

    Given the very wide range of stylistic variation in the ES mandolins, even the older models, and the length of time the brand has been available (ca 1900 into the 1950s) it makes one wonder if these were from an actual fabricator or were part of a branded / jobbed production.

    Or maybe some complex relationship between the two.

    The Catanese stringed instrument history is fascinating and over here we only ever get fragmented glimpses into it.

    Mick
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  10. #8

    Default Re: Ermelinda Silvestri - Needs help!

    I like it, and hope you can at least clean up the cosmetics, even if the playability is too challenging. What I like is the Art Nouveau sinuosity all over, even if it could induce nausea if you had to see it while playing!
    The one shot of a side view does hint at neck movement, but not beyond remedy.

  11. #9

    Default Re: Ermelinda Silvestri - Needs help!

    I would roughly date it in 1910s-1920s. At some stage Silvestri teamed up with another maker Sgroi and had mandolins made under Sgroi-Silvestri joint brand. Then they apparently split and Sgroi teamed up with some Mancuso and became Sgroi-Mancuso and Silvestri went solo. I guess one day someone will put all the bits and pieces together and write a book about all those enterprising and innovative Sicilian mandolin makers.

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  13. #10

    Default Re: Ermelinda Silvestri - Needs help!

    This thread -towards the bottom explains the history of Silvestri and the various names as mentioned by vic-victor above with a couple of labels also shown.

    https://letstalkguild.com/ltg/index....inding.199273/

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  15. #11

    Default Re: Ermelinda Silvestri - Needs help!

    Thanks all for the info thus far.

    Here are some more pictures. Let me know what you guys think!
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  17. #12

    Default Re: Ermelinda Silvestri - Needs help!

    The photos tell their own story but an interesting instrument. The original top part of the tailpiece is German. Here is an explanation:
    "D.R.G.M., or sometimes DRGM, is not a German patent. It was instead a way for inventors to register a product's design or function in all states within Germany. From 1891 to 1952, products manufactured in Germany might have been stamped with this D.R.G.M."

  18. #13
    Full Grown and Cussin' brunello97's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ermelinda Silvestri - Needs help!

    Thanks for the extra photos.
    This was probably a pretty nice mandolin at one time.

    In deep trouble now.

    What's going on in Picture #5 (row 2, 2nd from left)?

    Is the top lifting off? What is the goop on there?

    I dig the carved head.

    Mick
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    Registered User Tavy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ermelinda Silvestri - Needs help!

    It can of course be restored, anything can be, but that's a very significant challenge: the neck angle is terrible, and there's some old repair at the heal of the neck which may or may not be something nasty and hidden. Fretboard fixup is trivial IF the neck can be sorted. Top and all that mess that's holding it on is looking pretty nasty too. In terms of pure value, there's no way it's worth restoring, in terms of sentimental value, then maybe, if you have quite a few $$'s to spare.

    Sure was a lovely mandolin at one time though!

  20. #15

    Default Re: Ermelinda Silvestri - Needs help!

    Quote Originally Posted by brunello97 View Post
    Thanks for the extra photos.
    This was probably a pretty nice mandolin at one time.

    In deep trouble now.

    What's going on in Picture #5 (row 2, 2nd from left)?

    Is the top lifting off? What is the goop on there?

    I dig the carved head.

    Mick
    I'm not sure. The top is lifted off and separated from the body. I'm unclear what the goop is and if it was something that was added to try to fix.

  21. #16

    Default Re: Ermelinda Silvestri - Needs help!

    Quote Originally Posted by Tavy View Post
    It can of course be restored, anything can be, but that's a very significant challenge: the neck angle is terrible, and there's some old repair at the heal of the neck which may or may not be something nasty and hidden. Fretboard fixup is trivial IF the neck can be sorted. Top and all that mess that's holding it on is looking pretty nasty too. In terms of pure value, there's no way it's worth restoring, in terms of sentimental value, then maybe, if you have quite a few $$'s to spare.

    Sure was a lovely mandolin at one time though!
    I appreciate these insights. I tend to agree, that it may be too far gone. The sentimental value is there. Going to hang on to it, who knows maybe some day down the road.

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    Default Re: Ermelinda Silvestri - Needs help!

    Quote Originally Posted by cawhite78 View Post
    I appreciate these insights. I tend to agree, that it may be too far gone. The sentimental value is there. Going to hang on to it, who knows maybe some day down the road.
    If anyone could fix it, John—Tavy—would be the man.

    Have you tried loosening / removing the strings?

    Can the top be eased back into position with the strings off?

    I’d be more concerned with the neck position right off than reseating the top.

    It all looks so wonky with the top awry.

    If the neck (miraculously) has rotated up, maybe some interim repairs to make it playable aren’t that far off.

    Of course, if the neck is out of position, it may be even worse than starting over.

    Mick
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  23. #18

    Default Re: Ermelinda Silvestri - Needs help!

    Great peghead -- looks like he/she is wearing headphones!

  24. #19
    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ermelinda Silvestri - Needs help!

    Quote Originally Posted by cawhite78 View Post
    Thanks all for the info thus far.

    Here are some more pictures. Let me know what you guys think!
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Is this the "goop" picture? Looks like packing tape to keep the top or binding from falling off behind the couch.
    Jim

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    Default Re: Ermelinda Silvestri - Needs help!

    Quote Originally Posted by brunello97 View Post
    Of course, if the neck is out of position, it may be even worse than starting over.
    Depends by what you mean by out of position: if it's actually come loose, then I would say that's a result: just glue it back in place to fix the issue, it's body distortion that's the hard one to deal with.

    BTW while half of me thinks that one would be great fun to restore, half of me wants to run away screaming

  26. #21

    Default Re: Ermelinda Silvestri - Needs help!

    Quote Originally Posted by Tavy View Post
    Depends by what you mean by out of position: if it's actually come loose, then I would say that's a result: just glue it back in place to fix the issue, it's body distortion that's the hard one to deal with.

    BTW while half of me thinks that one would be great fun to restore, half of me wants to run away screaming
    I tend to agree on the screaming bit. It may be too far gone.

    As for the goop picture? I think at some point there may have been some tape trying to hold it together? It also looks like there is some tape on the fretboard.

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    Default Re: Ermelinda Silvestri - Needs help!

    Quote Originally Posted by Tavy View Post
    Depends by what you mean by out of position: if it's actually come loose, then I would say that's a result: just glue it back in place to fix the issue, it's body distortion that's the hard one to deal with.

    BTW while half of me thinks that one would be great fun to restore, half of me wants to run away screaming

    It's the latter that I was referring to John.

    I was just wondering how much the detached top was contributing to the overall troublesome geometry of the whole instrument and / or whether neck problems were associated with that or had issues of their own.

    From the photos it doesn't appear as if the neck has come loose at the neck / bowl joint.

    Mick
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    Default Re: Ermelinda Silvestri - Needs help!

    Quote Originally Posted by brunello97 View Post
    It's the latter that I was referring to John.

    I was just wondering how much the detached top was contributing to the overall troublesome geometry of the whole instrument and / or whether neck problems were associated with that or had issues of their own.

    From the photos it doesn't appear as if the neck has come loose at the neck / bowl joint.

    Mick
    Nod. In order for the neck to rotate forward something has to give, in this case it appears the top has separated from the rim and the body spread outwards at the sides allowing the neck to rotate forward. You would hopefully get back some of the geometry when putting it back together, but it tends to be very hard to get everything back to the original shape when it's been this way for a while. There would be no way to tell except pull the top and then see how it looks!

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    Default Re: Ermelinda Silvestri - Needs help!

    Quote Originally Posted by Tavy View Post
    Nod. In order for the neck to rotate forward something has to give, in this case it appears the top has separated from the rim and the body spread outwards at the sides allowing the neck to rotate forward. You would hopefully get back some of the geometry when putting it back together, but it tends to be very hard to get everything back to the original shape when it's been this way for a while. There would be no way to tell except pull the top and then see how it looks!
    Ha!

    John, I can see maybe more than half of you would be interested in tackle this repair.

    I know I would.

    The difference is that I know you would be able to fix it.

    Mick
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