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Thread: Chord based solos, Monroe method?

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    Registered User ukmando's Avatar
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    Default Chord based solos, Monroe method?

    Hello I expect this might have been asked before but I’m looking for a dvd or download lesson on playing and constructing mandolin solos based around chord shapes or positions. I’m a bit new and ignorant, is this known as the Monroe style? Anyway up to now I’ve been learning melodic fiddle tunes but want to be able to construct and ultimately improvise solos in the Bluegrass style. So, recommendations for dvd or download lessons please.
    Thanks

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    The Amateur Mandolinist Mark Gunter's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chord based solos, Monroe method?

    Rather than a single book or set of lessons, there may be many tools to use and study that can help with proficiency on this. For starters, I would suggest the two DVDs from Homespun Videos by Mike Marshall on Arpeggio Exercises.

    For practicing improv over chord changes, here are just a few ideas:

    1. Practice arpeggios in every octave and position, especially practicing them over various chord progressions.
    2. Learn your pentatonic scales in every key, every octave and neck position. Practice them over different chord progressions.
    3. Learn mandolin licks from whatever sources and transpose them to different keys and positions.
    4. Transcribe solos from the players you like and assess how they use arpeggios, scale tones and other devices to outline chords.

    You can find great lessons these days to help with all that.
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    Registered User Dave Hicks's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chord based solos, Monroe method?

    Homespun has a couple of DVDs on Monroe style, if that's what you want - some featuring the Master himself. They teach the tunes, but not much about where the note choices come from or how to improvise.

    D.H.

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    Registered User mbruno's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chord based solos, Monroe method?

    Quote Originally Posted by ukmando View Post
    Hello I expect this might have been asked before but I’m looking for a dvd or download lesson on playing and constructing mandolin solos based around chord shapes or positions. I’m a bit new and ignorant, is this known as the Monroe style? Anyway up to now I’ve been learning melodic fiddle tunes but want to be able to construct and ultimately improvise solos in the Bluegrass style. So, recommendations for dvd or download lessons please.
    Thanks
    I'm not sure if it's Monroe style or not, but I use chords to help create solos whenever I don't know the melody well enough (and even sometimes when I do). Personally I look at scales and arpeggios / chords as guidelines when it comes to soloing. Mainly that's because each of those devices will involve "right" notes - notes that are in the key (scales) or in the chord being played (arpeggios). Playing these notes in a solo almost always will sound good. Chord tones generally won't produce tension, but scale tones can (like the 2nd or 7th).

    I do a lot of practicing with arpeggios to help better understand songs I'm learning and generally get a better mental map of the fret board. Exercises like Tim O'Brien's arpeggio exercise (https://www.mandozine.com/techniques...os-obrien.html) are great for that. After getting the basics with that exercise, put it in practice by taking a song you're learning and writing out a similar exercise for all those chords. If you're playing Roll in My Sweet Baby's Arms for example in G, you'd play

    G arpeggio for 6 measures
    D arpeggio for 2 measure
    G arpeggio for 2 measures
    C arpeggio for 2 measures
    D arpeggio for 2 measures
    G arpeggio for 2 measures

    Writing out fretboard maps of the chords before doing this will be a huge help.

    That said, the "wrong" notes is where the magic happens. The notes that are not necessarily in the key or chord are the one's that will build tension and be more memorable in many cases than the "right" notes. It's similar to life - if you told me you went to work and nothing interested happened, it's not exciting and I'm not interested. If you told me you went to work and found a million dollars, something I didn't expect, then it's interesting and I'll pay more attention etc. Once you've gotten the "right" notes down, start adding in the "wrong" ones from time to time. You may be surprised
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    Default Re: Chord based solos, Monroe method?

    Quote Originally Posted by mbruno View Post
    I'm not sure if it's Monroe style or not, but I use chords to help create solos whenever I don't know the melody well enough (and even sometimes when I do). Personally I look at scales and arpeggios / chords as guidelines when it comes to soloing. Mainly that's because each of those devices will involve "right" notes - notes that are in the key (scales) or in the chord being played (arpeggios). Playing these notes in a solo almost always will sound good. Chord tones generally won't produce tension, but scale tones can (like the 2nd or 7th).

    I do a lot of practicing with arpeggios to help better understand songs I'm learning and generally get a better mental map of the fret board. Exercises like Tim O'Brien's arpeggio exercise (https://www.mandozine.com/techniques...os-obrien.html) are great for that. After getting the basics with that exercise, put it in practice by taking a song you're learning and writing out a similar exercise for all those chords. If you're playing Roll in My Sweet Baby's Arms for example in G, you'd play

    G arpeggio for 6 measures
    D arpeggio for 2 measure
    G arpeggio for 2 measures
    C arpeggio for 2 measures
    D arpeggio for 2 measures
    G arpeggio for 2 measures

    Writing out fretboard maps of the chords before doing this will be a huge help.

    That said, the "wrong" notes is where the magic happens. The notes that are not necessarily in the key or chord are the one's that will build tension and be more memorable in many cases than the "right" notes. It's similar to life - if you told me you went to work and nothing interested happened, it's not exciting and I'm not interested. If you told me you went to work and found a million dollars, something I didn't expect, then it's interesting and I'll pay more attention etc. Once you've gotten the "right" notes down, start adding in the "wrong" ones from time to time. You may be surprised
    Thanks for your very detailed and thoughtful answer. You’ve given me a lot to think about, and to practice! ��

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    Default Re: Chord based solos, Monroe method?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Gunter View Post
    Rather than a single book or set of lessons, there may be many tools to use and study that can help with proficiency on this. For starters, I would suggest the two DVDs from Homespun Videos by Mike Marshall on Arpeggio Exercises.

    For practicing improv over chord changes, here are just a few ideas:

    1. Practice arpeggios in every octave and position, especially practicing them over various chord progressions.
    2. Learn your pentatonic scales in every key, every octave and neck position. Practice them over different chord progressions.
    3. Learn mandolin licks from whatever sources and transpose them to different keys and positions.
    4. Transcribe solos from the players you like and assess how they use arpeggios, scale tones and other devices to outline chords.

    You can find great lessons these days to help with all that.

    Sensible advice, but I believe the question in this case is not about playing over chord changes, but playing out of chord formations. I can no longer locate it but there has been a Youtube video of Barney Kessel explaining this device in the context of jazz guitar, where it is quite common, and perhaps more effective.

    As for (Bluegrass) mandolin I believe Bill Monroe played a lot out of the big chop formation, especially in keys like A, Bb, and B natural. For instance, I believe in Pike County Breakdown he alternates that approach with a more scalar approach in open position. And I'm pretty sure Mike Compton mentions that approach in one of his analytic discussions of Monroe's style of mandolin.

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    Default Re: Chord based solos, Monroe method?

    I agree with Ralph, there isn't really a "Monroe Method" as a formal way of learning or interpreting mandolin music.

    There is a "Monroe Style" which is in no way written in stone ( or carved into a mandolin head piece for that matter).

    Bill did play melodies out of chord shapes but not 100% of the time, and its not uncommon in mandolin music in general.

    I think he played the melody out of a chord shape - where and when it worked for him.
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    Default Re: Chord based solos, Monroe method?

    We are really talking about 2 different concepts here that do intersect at times. Monroe style and chord position playing. Monroe style plays out of chord position at times but not always.

    I haven’t taken the course but I believe Sharon Gilchrist has a chord position course over at Peghead nation. You can probably try it out for a month with a promo code from the cafe to see if it is what you seek.

    Another great tool for understanding chord positions is starting with double stops. There’s is a handy free resource called Pickloser’s guide to double stops that will give you a new way to understand the fingerboard and give you many positions to play out of.

  12. #9

    Default Re: Chord based solos, Monroe method?

    Sharon's course listen here is a great resource for this:
    https://pegheadnation.com/string-sch...erboard-method
    And if you want to dig into monroe style more, reach out to Chris Henry for some online lessons.
    https://www.noyamountainmusic.com/private-lessons/

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    Registered User ukmando's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chord based solos, Monroe method?

    Thanks for all your reply’s and suggestions. The Sharon Gilchrist peghead course looks close to what I’m looking for, so I might give that a go.

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    Default Re: Chord based solos, Monroe method?

    I took the first 4 intro lessons of the Sharon Gilchrist fingerboard method - its very good, very hard core Bluegrass and very detailed.

    Sharon does a great job of really braking it down to the core, and her demonstrations are great examples to follow.

    for those planning on checking it out - you do need to know your chop chords or "Monroe chords" as she calls them.
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    Default Re: Chord based solos, Monroe method?

    I've got the homespun dvds, but I'd reiterate, Mike Compton is thee Monroe style guy.

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    Default Re: Chord based solos, Monroe method?

    No argument there, caught Compton and Newberry at Grey Fox this year, he was playing an F4 much like the one I have.
    He did a lot of open ringing notes against upper fret stuff, double stop slides, chord shape melodies, you know, Compton.
    He was in good form but I miss the little one legged stands and hat tips.
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    Default Re: Chord based solos, Monroe method?

    I think Bill Monroe's way of playing, is due to his physical size, and dexterity. Shucks, this is the foundation of each of our playing. Mike Compton is so studied in mandolin, he can play and teach more Monroe school, or less Monroe school. I think this is important.

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    Default Re: Chord based solos, Monroe method?

    I've never taken any kind of one on one or group lesson with Compton (though I have seen him perform many times), and this is my first experience with Sharon as an instructor (I have seen her live only a few times)

    Having played with Uncle Earl, Tony Rice and Peter Rowan, and John Reischman, that's pretty major league as far as Bluegrass goes, my first impression is that she is very good at explaining the mechanics of how she is making sounds on the mandolin and also explains the "intent" on certain finger positions and arpeggio choices

    I also don't think the Peghead course is advertised in anyway as strictly Monroe style, however a lot of the music is related to Monroe's type of music or has been performed by Monroe

    Here is Compton and Gilchrist performing together on Monroe's "My Father's Footsteps"
    There is a distinct difference in mandolin performance style, for one Compton holds the mandolin more like Monroe did, I will say for the record I do not believe holding the mandolin like Monroe did will do anything to help you sound like him, although I agree how we hold the mandolin does contribute heavily to every players style.

    Compton is more "fluid or loose" (he is that to most players anyway) I think even more than Monroe was.
    Gilchrist seems a little more "tightly wound", and her sound and tone is somewhat "brighter".

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    Default Re: Chord based solos, Monroe method?

    Lauren Price is a fantastic Monroe-influenced player. Check out her break here. Solo at 2:15.



    Another. She was barely out of diapers here.

    Last edited by lowtone2; Sep-01-2022 at 4:48pm.

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    Default Re: Chord based solos, Monroe method?

    Quote Originally Posted by farmerjones View Post
    Shucks, this is the foundation of each of our playing.

    .
    Really????

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    The Amateur Mandolinist Mark Gunter's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chord based solos, Monroe method?

    Quote Originally Posted by ralph johansson View Post
    Sensible advice, but I believe the question in this case is not about playing over chord changes, but playing out of chord formations.
    Yes, I can see that is correct, I missed the boat there as I did not address that. I, purposely though, ignored the question about Bill Monroe, which was just sort of thrown in as a second question, "is this known as the Monroe style?" ... the answer to which is "no". A very simple answer. Playing out of chord formations is not known as "the Monroe style."

    Nevertheless, many of the responses seem to suggest that the main question is, "what is Monroe style?" I don't think that question has much to do with lessons on how to play out of chord positions.

    BTW, the Gilchrist course looks very interesting.
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    Default Re: Chord based solos, Monroe method?

    Mark I think you nailed it with "what is Monroe style"
    We have plenty of Monroe recordings in all kinds of band arrangements, and while Monroe's playing is not entirely unique to his generations of players, his playing is fairly recognizably to the avid bluegrass listener (his singing most definitely is).
    I am not going to try to define it here as there are probably already many articles defining Monroe's style in terms of musical technique, but the short version is lots of pentatonic blues, usually hanging close to the melody, heavy on the double stops and arpeggios, and a very "active" plectral right hand.
    It's probably fair to say Monroe's style is based on the music he played, as he never really went far into classical or jazz or other folk idioms.
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