Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 30

Thread: Mandolin Tail Pin

  1. #1

    Default Mandolin Tail Pin

    Every so often someone will post about a loose "Strap Pin", when what they are more properly referring to is actually a misbegotten VIOLIN style tail pin.

    Violins are very well designed. A properly fit tail pin is right up there with one of it's most important design elements. It locates and loads the full string pressure upon itself, using only wood joinery. A loose tail pin can break almost very part of the violin, crack it's tail-block, collapse it's bridge, separate it's sides, or cause a complete catastrophic failure.

    To install one in a mandolin, whose design IN NO WAY requires it, is to introduce an unnecessary weakness into modern mandolin design. It must be assumed that it was originally done as some kind of "nod" towards violin construction, but it was a bad idea then, and it's a bad idea now.
    But Amsterdam was always good for grieving
    And London never fails to leave me blue
    And Paris never was my kinda town
    So I walked around with the Ft. Worth Blues

  2. #2
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    DeKalb, IL
    Posts
    3,621

    Default Re: Mandolin Tail Pin

    No argument from me. Years ago I went to a screw in strap button. Or if the customer so desires, I put an ebony strap button. Or a 1/4" jack.

  3. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Dale Ludewig For This Useful Post:


  4. #3
    Likes quaint instruments poul hansen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2020
    Location
    Danmark
    Posts
    475

    Default Re: Mandolin Tail Pin

    Quote Originally Posted by Fretbear View Post
    Every so often someone will post about a loose "Strap Pin", when what they are more properly referring to is actually a misbegotten VIOLIN style tail pin.

    Violins are very well designed. A properly fit tail pin is right up there with one of it's most important design elements. It locates and loads the full string pressure upon itself, using only wood joinery. A loose tail pin can break almost very part of the violin, crack it's tail-block, collapse it's bridge, separate it's sides, or cause a complete catastrophic failure.

    To install one in a mandolin, whose design IN NO WAY requires it, is to introduce an unnecessary weakness into modern mandolin design. It must be assumed that it was originally done as some kind of "nod" towards violin construction, but it was a bad idea then, and it's a bad idea now.
    Sorry, what is the purpose of this post?

    There is nothing wrong with a strap pin(which by the way is a totally correct name for it) and it doesn't weaken the mandolin the least, especially not the screw in type. The violin type needs a bigger hole but if afraid of weakening the mandolin, just glue the pin in.

    What relevans has the violin design on a mandolin pin? You just describe a silly design of the violin, which depends on 1 element, that is only fastened by pressing it down and can destroy the whole instrument??!!
    Kentucky KM-805..........2 Hora M1086 Portuguese II(1 in car)
    Hora M1088 Mandola.....Hora M1087P Octave
    Richmond RMA-110-VS .Noname (German?) mandolin
    Pochette Franz Janisch...2 Pocket
    Puglisi Pocket 1908........Puglisi 1912
    Mandolinetto Neapolitane 1910
    1 Mandriola...................Cannelo G. Mandriola...Böhm Waldzither 1921
    Johs Møller 1945............Fangel 1915................Luigi Embergher Studio 1933
    Marma Seashell back......Crafton.......................Luigi Embergher 5bis 1909

  5. #4

    Default Re: Mandolin Tail Pin

    Only one of my now-getting-out-of-hand bunch of mandolins has the object in question, and it’s perfectly obvious that it relates to strap support and one genre of music. Serves the same essential purpose on guitars intended for standing operation. Certainly unrelated to violin structure; just happens to be at the tail end in both, where there is some substantial anchorage…because both instruments do locate the string loading there.
    I don’t own or want a mandolin strap, but it, and its attachment point are necessary for lots of us.

  6. #5
    Registered User Jill McAuley's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Co. Mayo, Ireland
    Posts
    3,445

    Default Re: Mandolin Tail Pin

    Quote Originally Posted by poul hansen View Post
    Sorry, what is the purpose of this post?

    There is nothing wrong with a strap pin(which by the way is a totally correct name for it) and it doesn't weaken the mandolin the least, especially not the screw in type. The violin type needs a bigger hole but if afraid of weakening the mandolin, just glue the pin in.

    What relevans has the violin design on a mandolin pin? You just describe a silly design of the violin, which depends on 1 element, that is only fastened by pressing it down and can destroy the whole instrument??!!
    If I get the gist of the OP's post right the point they're making is that for mandolins, where a strap is likely to be used, a screw in strap button may be a more secure option than an old school press in strap pin. When people post that their "strap button" is loose it would probably be helpful if they differentiate between whether it's a screw in strap button or a press in one since the advice given to address the situation would differ depending on the type of pin they have. Novice players might not be aware that there is a difference so it's good information to share. I don't think it's helpful to start questioning what the "purpose" of another member's post is - it's a public forum, and as long as the content doesn't breach Cafe posting rules folks are free to post what they want.
    2018 Girouard Concert oval A
    2015 JP "Whitechapel" tenor banjo
    2018 Frank Tate tenor guitar
    1969 Martin 00-18




    my Youtube channel

  7. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Jill McAuley For This Useful Post:


  8. #6
    Likes quaint instruments poul hansen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2020
    Location
    Danmark
    Posts
    475

    Default Re: Mandolin Tail Pin

    Quote Originally Posted by Jill McAuley View Post
    ......... I don't think it's helpful to start questioning what the "purpose" of another member's post is - it's a public forum, and as long as the content doesn't breach Cafe posting rules folks are free to post what they want.
    Well, so am I
    Kentucky KM-805..........2 Hora M1086 Portuguese II(1 in car)
    Hora M1088 Mandola.....Hora M1087P Octave
    Richmond RMA-110-VS .Noname (German?) mandolin
    Pochette Franz Janisch...2 Pocket
    Puglisi Pocket 1908........Puglisi 1912
    Mandolinetto Neapolitane 1910
    1 Mandriola...................Cannelo G. Mandriola...Böhm Waldzither 1921
    Johs Møller 1945............Fangel 1915................Luigi Embergher Studio 1933
    Marma Seashell back......Crafton.......................Luigi Embergher 5bis 1909

  9. #7
    NY Naturalist BradKlein's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Lehigh Valley - Pennsylvania
    Posts
    2,159

    Default Re: Mandolin Tail Pin

    Tapered end pins are more elegant, but pose a risk to the end block if dropped.

    Screw in end pins have a metal screw holding them in place until it loosens and then is retightened, until someday, it strips and is replaced. Less elegant, but gets the job done.

    You takes your choice...
    BradKlein
    Morning Edition Host, WLVR News
    Senior Producer, Twangbox®
    Twangbox® Videos

  10. The following members say thank you to BradKlein for this post:


  11. #8
    coprolite mandroid's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    Outer Spiral Arm, of Galaxy, NW Oregon.
    Posts
    16,913

    Question Re: Mandolin Tail Pin

    Oversized tapered end pins are available as are the tapered reamers, in violin making & repair tools..

    Weber made a rubber thing to go in the end block as I recall...
    writing about music
    is like dancing,
    about architecture

  12. #9
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    DeKalb, IL
    Posts
    3,621

    Default Re: Mandolin Tail Pin

    You can buy the equivalent of the Weber thing at the hardware store. I forget its name at the moment.

  13. #10
    Registered User Jill McAuley's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Co. Mayo, Ireland
    Posts
    3,445

    Default Re: Mandolin Tail Pin

    Quote Originally Posted by poul hansen View Post
    Well, so am I
    I guess your mileage may vary as they say, but I for one think this forum would be in a sorry and unwelcoming state if everyone started questioning the "purpose" of each other's posts, but clearly you disagree. Just because you aren't interested in or don't understand the intention of a post doesn't mean it doesn't resonate with other members.
    2018 Girouard Concert oval A
    2015 JP "Whitechapel" tenor banjo
    2018 Frank Tate tenor guitar
    1969 Martin 00-18




    my Youtube channel

  14. The following members say thank you to Jill McAuley for this post:


  15. #11
    coprolite mandroid's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    Outer Spiral Arm, of Galaxy, NW Oregon.
    Posts
    16,913

    Exclamation Re: Mandolin Tail Pin

    Always can fake it :machine screw & nut & rubber & a strap button.
    get the nut to stick to the rubber , & not turn,
    as the bolt is tightened, the rubber expands, as it gets shorter..

    writing about music
    is like dancing,
    about architecture

  16. #12

    Default Re: Mandolin Tail Pin

    Quote Originally Posted by mandroid View Post
    Always can fake it: machine screw & nut & rubber & a strap button.
    Get the nut to stick to the rubber & not turn, as the bolt is tightened, the rubber expands, as it gets shorter..
    That's a good idea when having to deal with an existing tail-block hole;
    Leather laces knotted through the F-Holes, pulled back and then attached to the strap's end is a good solution as well.
    Using a pressure-fitted tail pin as a strap button is courting disaster.
    But Amsterdam was always good for grieving
    And London never fails to leave me blue
    And Paris never was my kinda town
    So I walked around with the Ft. Worth Blues

  17. #13

    Default Re: Mandolin Tail Pin

    Quote Originally Posted by Dale Ludewig View Post
    You can buy the equivalent of the Weber thing at the hardware store. I forget its name at the moment.
    It's called a "Gozinta"...
    But Amsterdam was always good for grieving
    And London never fails to leave me blue
    And Paris never was my kinda town
    So I walked around with the Ft. Worth Blues

  18. #14
    Registered User Charles E.'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Saint Augustine Beach FL
    Posts
    5,925

    Default Re: Mandolin Tail Pin

    Quote Originally Posted by Fretbear View Post
    It's called a "Gozinta"...
    Ha,Ha, my Jewish Step Mother used to refer to a "Gozinta"... "this gozinta that".
    Charley

    A bunch of stuff with four strings

  19. #15
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    DeKalb, IL
    Posts
    3,621

    Default Re: Mandolin Tail Pin

    I'm remembering the picture of the Weber like thing. It might have been one of the first. Kind of like the early Taylor guitars had necks attached with hardware store stuff. The tailpin thing is a rubber tube with fairly thick walls. On the inside end was a T-nut, that thing with the little spurs. That went into the rubber walls so it wouldn't spin. Then I think there was a washer on the outside just under the strap button, just a bit larger that the hole so it acts like a wall. Then a little machine screw through the strap button, the washer, the rubber tube, and threads into the t-nut. As you tighten it (as mentioned above), the rubber expands and holds everything else in place.

  20. #16
    coprolite mandroid's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    Outer Spiral Arm, of Galaxy, NW Oregon.
    Posts
    16,913

    Default Re: Mandolin Tail Pin

    Filling in a larger cylindrical hole bored out for a 1/4' jack/end pins, perhaps?
    writing about music
    is like dancing,
    about architecture

  21. #17

    Default Re: Mandolin Tail Pin

    If your Franken-o-lin needs more bits from other universes, these things are called rubber pipe plugs, and actually exist ins small diameters. The one pictured is 1/2”
    However, I still don’t understand if the thread is about a strap rupturing a tail block by (lateral) pull on a strap, or direct impact, as in the button hitting the floor, or what. I have noticed that the builders here are consistent about not gluing in a loose one, but I figured that was because it would be harder to replace. Or what?
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	34F8BB90-1BB7-4244-9B1A-237DCF9A0181.png 
Views:	7 
Size:	718.9 KB 
ID:	202141

  22. #18
    Moderator MikeEdgerton's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Howell, NJ
    Posts
    25,554

    Default Re: Mandolin Tail Pin

    Many years ago Weber used this solution. It's basically a well nut and either a banjo resonator bolt or a screw for a light fixture. Basically hardware store stuff and possibly a specialized bolt. You could do the same thing with a well nut and a threaded machine screw and a strap button, even a nice wooden strap button from Stewmac. This would be applicable to an existing end pin hole.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

Name:	WeberEndPIn.jpg 
Views:	8 
Size:	27.8 KB 
ID:	202142  
    "It's comparable to playing a cheese slicer."
    --M. Stillion

    "Bargain instruments are no bargains if you can't play them"
    --J. Garber

  23. #19
    Moderator MikeEdgerton's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Howell, NJ
    Posts
    25,554

    Default Re: Mandolin Tail Pin

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard500 View Post
    If your Franken-o-lin needs more bits from other universes, these things are called rubber pipe plugs, and actually exist ins small diameters. The one pictured is 1/2”
    However, I still don’t understand if the thread is about a strap rupturing a tail block by (lateral) pull on a strap, or direct impact, as in the button hitting the floor, or what. I have noticed that the builders here are consistent about not gluing in a loose one, but I figured that was because it would be harder to replace. Or what?
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	34F8BB90-1BB7-4244-9B1A-237DCF9A0181.png 
Views:	7 
Size:	718.9 KB 
ID:	202141
    Collings glues them in.
    "It's comparable to playing a cheese slicer."
    --M. Stillion

    "Bargain instruments are no bargains if you can't play them"
    --J. Garber

  24. #20
    Moderator MikeEdgerton's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Howell, NJ
    Posts
    25,554

    Default Re: Mandolin Tail Pin

    For anyone fearing the dreaded end pin pop I still like the Hans Brentrup method.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

Name:	HansMethod.jpg 
Views:	27 
Size:	6.6 KB 
ID:	202144  
    "It's comparable to playing a cheese slicer."
    --M. Stillion

    "Bargain instruments are no bargains if you can't play them"
    --J. Garber

  25. The following members say thank you to MikeEdgerton for this post:


  26. #21
    Registered User JonDoug's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Missoula, Montana
    Posts
    47

    Default Re: Mandolin Tail Pin

    I thought the traditional friction-fit endpin/strap pin was added to the mandolin as an Analog Humidity Alarm: when the pin falls out, you know you're mistreating your instrument with low humidity!

  27. #22
    NY Naturalist BradKlein's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Lehigh Valley - Pennsylvania
    Posts
    2,159

    Default Re: Mandolin Tail Pin

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeEdgerton View Post
    Collings glues them in.
    I would be amazed if Collings glued in tapered end pins. They certainly hadn't in the one mandolin of theirs I've owned.

    That would make it very hard to remove in the case of shipping, or for other reasons, and kind of defeat the idea of a tapered pin.
    BradKlein
    Morning Edition Host, WLVR News
    Senior Producer, Twangbox®
    Twangbox® Videos

  28. #23
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    S.W. Wisconsin
    Posts
    6,757

    Default Re: Mandolin Tail Pin

    Seeing as the end pin hole is tapered, if you are going to go the expanding rubber tube method you should at least drill the hole so it is not tapered.
    THE WORLD IS A BETTER PLACE JUST FOR YOUR SMILE!

  29. #24
    Moderator MikeEdgerton's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Howell, NJ
    Posts
    25,554

    Default Re: Mandolin Tail Pin

    Quote Originally Posted by BradKlein View Post
    I would be amazed if Collings glued in tapered end pins. They certainly hadn't in the one mandolin of theirs I've owned.

    That would make it very hard to remove in the case of shipping, or for other reasons, and kind of defeat the idea of a tapered pin.
    Prepare to be amazed.

    https://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/t...button-Removal
    "It's comparable to playing a cheese slicer."
    --M. Stillion

    "Bargain instruments are no bargains if you can't play them"
    --J. Garber

  30. #25
    Moderator MikeEdgerton's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Howell, NJ
    Posts
    25,554

    Default Re: Mandolin Tail Pin

    Quote Originally Posted by pops1 View Post
    Seeing as the end pin hole is tapered, if you are going to go the expanding rubber tube method you should at least drill the hole so it is not tapered.
    The expanding rubber will conform to the hole. I'd be more concerned with someone cranking the screw until it split the tail block but I don't know how much that would take.
    "It's comparable to playing a cheese slicer."
    --M. Stillion

    "Bargain instruments are no bargains if you can't play them"
    --J. Garber

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •