$200 - $500 Recording setup ?

[c3hammer]

Here's a few assumptions. I'll be recording on either a PC/PC soundcard or an Archos Jukebox Recorder 20 with Sound Professionals preamp. Both are stereo miniplug compatible.

My computers are super noisy and I will need some cable length to get away from them into another room.

If you had $200 - $500 to spend what would you buy to capture the warmest most forgiving tone you could get?

How would you set up the mic and room to best effect?

Any suggestions would be appreciated.

Cheers,
Pete

[PCypert]

Are you wondering what will work best for mandolin or in general? Also how much tought have you given to the input device chosen?

I ask because to me there's nothing quite like the MBox from Pro Tools. Great preamps for the money and great software, etc.

If you're just wanting mic techniques and all that that's a whole new ball game. Don't throw away money on ###### "tube warmers" and things like that. Get some quality mics and do some research on angles, positions, etc.

Paul

[jaco]

I second the m-box and pro-tools. Everything you need is there (except a quality mike) for around $450.00. All the eq and digital effects included.

[glauber]

Try Sound Professionals for the microphone, or get a good used microphone on eBay. You'll end up spending more on the microphone than the rest of the setup, so buy something you'll want to keep.

[c3hammer]

PCypert, I'm looking to record solo mando exclusively. I had planned to use my PC's and / or my Archos as the input device.

glauber, I already have a Sound Pro's preamped stereo omni condenser mic unit for the Archos. So far it seems to work the best of anything I've tried. I can also run a mic through this preamp that will then defeat the mics onboard.

I tried it yesterday with a KSM32 and phantom power box attached. It was great but very unforgiving of my playing attack. I'd love to have one of those mics some day though.

The MBox2 looks to be a great little unit, but already have three devices for storing and editing (Cooledit). I'm more interested in what you do with mics and set up in your home to make it super forgiving and to best hide your mistakes in playing.

I may try some of the binaural mic setups for this stereo Archos/Sound Pro's setup. One in front and one behind or such.

Let me know if anyone has tried something like that and what are the results.

Cheers,
Pete

[cyeiser]

The setup i've been playing with recently has three sources... the mandolin is a Gold Tone Rigel knockoff... I plug the mando into the mixer's preamp directly, then I point a Rode NT5 mic at the spot on the neck right around where the neck meets the body, and at a slight downward angle with the end of the mic maybe two inches away from the mando... Finally, I set up an ElectroVoice RE20 mic at a distance of about 3 to 4 feet away, pointing generally at the mando. #I sit in the middle of a largish room with carpet on the floor, acoustical tile ceiling, drywall walls, and an average dispersion of furniture.

I really like the sound that results. #I can boost the "line in" for more tone vs. attack. #For a little more attack, i dial up the close mic. #For some neat "reverb" i dial up the far mic. #between the three I usually find a sound i'm happy with.

Chris

[rudy44]

I'm using the new Fostex MR8-HD with a mini-fi for monitoring. This isn't my "main" recording rig, but one I put together for garage use. Less than $400 and has 4 phantom-powered mic inputs, 4 track simultaineous record capabilities, and a 40 gig hard drive. I'm having a ball with this unit. I've got a review of the unit and some operating information on my website:
www.angelfire.com/music2/construct/pageMR8.html

[Spruce]

"If you had $200 - $500 to spend what would you buy to capture the warmest most forgiving tone you could get?"

"PCypert, I'm looking to record solo mando exclusively."

Sounds like you already have a mic pre and a mic or 2?

Here's a good solution that a lot of folks won't recommend these days, but it sounds like it might be perfect for you...

I'll bet you could get a very nice 2-track reel-to-reel recorder for 350.00 or so...
Get ahold of one of those small 4 channel Mackie mixers (I recently found a used one for 50 bucks), and you're in business...

There's your "warm" sound, and if you're only gonna be recording solo mandolin onto 2 tracks, that might be something you want to consider....

[c3hammer]

hmmmm.......

Sound like an interesting proposition there Spruce! I've been recording with my buddies Mackie 1202 VLZ Pro mixer and a cheap Global Audio LX 2400 Condenser mic on Cooledit Pro. The Mackie has 48v phantom and mic pre's built into it. It has done the best job so far for me.

My mics are some mini omni condensers that are in a Sound Professionals preamp box. It's pocket sized and designed to record with line-in level only recorders like my Archos Jukebox 20gig. It works, but it's nothing like the other setups.

I'm going to try the Mackie and GA GXL2400 with my Archos to see how it does.

Have you ever tried one of the less expensive ($100) tube pre's that are available with a reel to reel recorder?

My dad had three reel to reel recorders he just tossed out as they kept eating his old tapes that are getting brittle. Bummer!

Any suggestions as to which recorders are worth picking up and or better yet, which ones I should stay away from?

Cheers,
Pete

[Rich Breen]

I'm more interested in what you do with mics and set up in your home to make it super forgiving and to best hide your mistakes in playing.

I may try some of the binaural mic setups for this stereo Archos/Sound Pro's setup.

Hi Pete - For "forgiving", i'd look into something other than a condenser (although a good, truly high-end condenser like a schoeps cmc6/mk4 or Sennheiser MKH80 will be warmer than what you're using, but $$$) - I'd try a ribbon; maybe a Royer R121 or AEA R92. #Don't know if they're in your price range, but they have a much different sound than a condenser, and i reach for them when i want less "detail".

As far as pres go, i wouldn't obsess too much over them - microphones determine the color *much* more than the pre, and the fact that something has a tube in it or not is almost meaningless - it's just as easy to design a ###### sounding tube preamp as it is a solid state one, and most of what you hear/read about these cheap little tube pres is marketing - more important to #the sound of a pre is whether or not it's got transformers in it. #I'm personally very fond of the sound of iron in the front end and the preamps that I gravitate to are all transformer front end, *unless* I want lots of detail (the opposite of what you're looking for), in which case I'll use something like a Grace or GML pre (both transformerless and very detailed sounding).

With respect to Spruce, personally I'd avoid the headaches of a reel to reel unless you want to add machine maintenance to your list of hobbies - having a 2tk analog can be nice, but it's like having an old chevy - they require regular and consistent maintenance to sound good, and tape is getting harder to get all the time. #Plus, unless you know what you're doing, buying a used analog machine is full of pitfalls for the novice.

Best,
rich

[Spruce]

"My mics are some mini omni condensers that are in a Sound Professionals preamp box."

Do you have a link to these or a pic?

We're talking 2 little clip-on omnis, right? #I don't understand the "in a Sound Professionals preamp box" part....

Anyway, for solo mandolin, I'd run those omnis 3-4 feet in front of the mandolin through your best mic pre in your best room....
I'd then mix in your close-mando-mic-of-choice...
Run 'em through the Mackie with the omnis panned hard L/R, the close mic dead center, and run them to tape...
Adjust to taste.....

Try turning those omnis into a binaural mic by clipping them on either side of a cantelope or other head-sized object.

"Have you ever tried one of the less expensive ($100) tube pre's that are available with a reel to reel recorder?"

Yep....
They're usually pretty good when working correctly....

Ampex 350s and 351s electronics are good. #Even those old Akais can be good. #But they are usually noisy after all these years and need a tad of work to get them up to snuff...

I use them all the time on things like guitar and bass amps, kick drums, etc. etc. where a bit of noise is not a problem and a lot of character is a good thing....

In your case, I'd go with the Mackies or get ahold of a good stereo mic-pre for your omnis....

"My dad had three reel to reel recorders he just tossed out as they kept eating his old tapes that are getting brittle. #Bummer!"

Most likely it was the tape's fault...
And if it was the machine's fault, you can usually easily fix them...
That's the nice thing about old technology...

"Any suggestions as to which recorders are worth picking up and or better yet, which ones I should stay away from?"

These machines can be valuable in certain circles, but I'd try to take advantage of the fact that, like your dad, folks throw these things away all the time....
Garage sales, junk stores, etc. are a good place to look....

The ultimate would be to find a good old Revox B77 or Studer machine, but these don't usually hang out in home-entertainment circles. #They were, and are, professional machines.
That being said, I've found them for not a lot of money before, so it's possible...

Old Ampex machines are out-and-about, and are wonderful units. #

Try to find one that hasn't been used all that much, which is a pretty common occurance. #People bought R-toRs back in the day thinking that they would use them, and as new technology came on the scene, were dumped in the closet...
They usually need some oiling to get them up and running, but worth it....

"With respect to Spruce, personally I'd avoid the headaches of a reel to reel unless you want to add machine maintenance to your list of hobbies - having a 2tk analog can be nice, but it's like having an old chevy - they require regular and consistent maintenance to sound good, and tape is getting harder to get all the time. Plus, unless you know what you're doing, buying a used analog machine is full of pitfalls for the novice."

Agreed on all that....
But it is an option that in this age of high-tech digital gets commonly overlooked...

And it sounds like you missed an opportunity to try out good-'ol analog for free by that much, with your dad throwing out those machines...
Oh well....

Oh, and tape is readily available for 2-track machines, so that's not really an issue.....yet.

Luck!

[c3hammer]

Bruce:

Here's one of the Archos and the Sound Professionals dual chanel mics/preamp



Here's the link to their info on it.

http://www.soundprofessionals.com/cg...item/SP-PREAMP

Mine has the electret omni condesers built into it. #There is one on each side of the 2.5" x 3" box. #You can see the one down on the side of the box around the corner from the adjustment knob. #These mics creates the binaural effect quite nicely when played through headphones.

Thanks for the info Rich. #There's so much here to try and mess with, that my novice self is starting to overload a bit. #I think I'll stick with the stuff I can borrow and my Archos to store for now.

In the end of the day, all of this has done exactly what I was looking for it to do. #I'm learning a great deal about my pick attack, room accoustics and mic placement. #Those three things alone can control 95% of the sound I get it seems.

Thanks again for all your guys help.

Cheers,
Pete

[mikeyes]

If you have only about $200 to $500 to spend, you will have to buy, well, cheap products such as the Kel Audio HM-1 Condensor Microphone , the Beringer UB-202 Mixer and various stands and cables to match. I use Garage Band (integral to my Apple Powerbook) and move the microphones to a quiet book filled room. Total cost so far is about $300 and I don't know if you can get much cheaper and still have some quality.

Of course I am only doing one track right now and publishing them as MP3s.

[Spruce]

"Mine has the electret omni condesers built into it. #There is one on each side of the 2.5" x 3" box. #You can see the one down on the side of the box around the corner from the adjustment knob. #These mics creates the binaural effect quite nicely when played through headphones."

Never heard of such a thing...
Interesting...

What is that, marketing for the "stealth recording" folks who are recording loud bands and need a good pre?

OK, back to the problem at hand...

Try using those omnis and pre, and stick it though a "line-in" in your borrowed Mackie 1202 VLZ panned L/R...
Then close-mic your mandolin and throw it through a mic pre in your Mackie panned center...
Mix to taste to your Archos...

You're set, right?

Dump it onto your computer for mastering...

You're gonna find the the room you choose to record in will become very important...

You might spend some money on a digital reverb, like one of the cheap Lexicons...
Some of those room settings can be very nice (I like "Living Room" on my Lexicon, but it's not one of the cheapies)...

You can patch that in on the Mackie effects in/out, and commit to a 'verb sound when going straight to tape (or, ummm, hard drive)...

[c3hammer]

Definitely stealth recording gear from Sound Pro's. I'll give the combo a try through the Mackie later this week. My buddies sound room is about 3 1/2' x 4' and seemed to give the warmest tone with out the hollow echo I get in my house.

If I get the nerve I'll post some samples of what I have so far.

Thanks for all the help.

Cheers,
Pete

[c3hammer]

Here's a tune recorded with the Archos and Sound Pro's mics/pre on my kitchen table. #The backup is from Butch Baldissari's 30 fiddle tunes for the mandolin, playing on a boombox on the other side of me from the mics right behind the tail piece.

Sounds surprisingly good, particularly through headphones. #I was playing my Soltis Vessel mando that is only about 4 weeks old.

http://www.c3di.com/audio/st-annes-reel.mp3

Cheers,
Pete

[Tom Smart]

Nice job, Pete. When is the album coming out?

I was going to ask who your guitarist is--I could only think of one or two people around here whose playing is that tastefully understated and rhythmically solid. Then I re-read your post.

I really like the sound of that mandolin. I was at the shop on Saturday, and it seems Gary and Ryan are finishing up a right-handed version. It was getting oxidized or some such crazy thing, and I didn't actually see it, but I'm eager to see and pick it.

Ryan wouldn't confirm that they're secretly making it for me, but Daniel S., who was there carving a fiddle scroll while comparing his progress to a casting from a Guarneri, chimed in "don't you already have enough mandolins?" I hope that doesn't get Gary and Ryan thinking about presenting it to someone else...

TS