Help Identifying

[Patrick Bjorndal]

A friend asked if I could teach her abit of mandolin. This is what she showed up with. Beautiful resonator mando that her grandmother played from what she has heard from family members. Any ideas what make? Only mark that I can find is the serial number on the back. Thanks.

[MikeEdgerton]

A friend asked if I could teach her abit of mandolin. This is what she showed up with. Beautiful resonator mando that her grandmother played from what she has heard from family members. Any ideas what make? Only mark that I can find is the serial number on the back. Thanks.

It was made by Regal in Chicago. Is there actually a metal cone behind the cover?

[NickR]

Regal made but some were branded and sold by Dobro:

https://www.worthpoint.com/worthoped...tor-1848528763

This one because of damage has been repurposed as an uke.

https://jakewildwood.blogspot.com/20...-4-string.html

[MikeEdgerton]

Regal made but some were branded and sold by Dobro:

https://www.worthpoint.com/worthoped...tor-1848528763

This one because of damage has been repurposed as an uke.

https://jakewildwood.blogspot.com/20...-4-string.html

So you're saying this one was made by Regal right?

[rcc56]

This is a resonator instrument made by the Dobro company. I can see one leg of the spider bridge through the coverplate.
The serial number corresponds with 1931. The instrument is closest in specifications to a Dobro mandolin number 5.
My reference is Gruhn's Guide to Vintage Guitars, 2nd edition.

1931 is a year earlier than the initial licensing of manufacture to Regal, which occurred in 1932. It is said that Regal did not actually start manufacturing any Dobro instruments until 1933.

But . . . this particular instrument is a bit of an enigma, because the moon and stars coverplate was not offered until after Regal began building for Dobro, and is listed as an item used only on Regal built instruments.
Welcome to the vast world of old instruments that don't conform with catalog specifications.

I can come up with two possible explanations:
1. The coverplate was changed sometime after the instrument left the factory;
-or-
2. The factory assembled an instrument with a neck that was made at the Dobro plant in California and a body that was made later by Regal in Chicago.

At any rate, it's definitely a Dobro mandolin, and a nice looking instrument in very good condition. I've always particularly liked the look of the moon and stars coverplates.

[allenhopkins]

My rule of thumb has been that the "Dobro" mandolins with f-holes were generally labeled "Regal," and the ones with screen holes labeled "Dobro." And I may be wrong. In 1930's Chicago, where Regal, Dobro, and National were all located after the latter relocated from the West Coast, both Dobro and National had wooden bodies built by Regal, installing resonators and other hardware which they made themselves. At least that's my understanding.

My screen-hole Dobro mandolin's labeled "National Dobro Co.," which dates it to the later '30's, after National and Dobro merged. I defer to rcc56's knowledge of the specific dates of the Regal licensing, but wouldn't be surprised if Dobro bought the wooden parts of the instrument from Regal. I have a National Havana wood-bodied resonator guitar, with a body that looks like it was built by Kay, another Chicago firm.

In any case, it's a great instrument -- if it doesn't need a neck re-set, which many of the Dobro mandolins of that vintage do after this many years. Despite their unique and pleasing voices, they're not quite masterpieces of the luthier's art.

[MikeEdgerton]

This one is screened holes with a Regal label. I'm not sure that's going to help. I still think this is Regal and the one thing about the Chicago builders in the 30's was that they built a whole bunch for each other. If this is unlabeled and I believe it is then that would also point towards Regal as I've never seen a National product from that era built for the trade but hey, I have an eraser on my pencil and I love documentation. I just did a quick scan of Bob Carlin's Regal book and I'm not seeing any resonators and I'm a little surprised. Maybe I just missed them.

[rcc56]

If anyone was to take on the project of producing comprehensive and accurate histories of National, Dobro, Regal, Harmony, and Kay, they would likely have to bequeath the project to their grandchildren before it was complete. And that's without including Lyon & Healy and J.R. Stewart, or east coast companies such as Oscar Schmidt et. al.

The relationships between various manufacturers were very different back then. Just from viewing the instruments, there's plenty of reason to believe that many of them cooperated with each other to a degree that we just don't see today.

At any rate, I don't think the exact details of who built what part is all that important as far as the instruments themselves are concerned. Dobros sound suspiciously like Dobros no matter what the year or peghead design, and Nationals also have a way of sounding just like themselves.

And Regal made some very good instruments when they wanted to.

A quote from Gruhn's Guide: "Regal introduced its first [Dobro] models in June, 1933. Dobros were then made concurrently by National-Dobro in California and by Regal in Chicago until 1937, at which time Regal gained the exclusive right to market Dobro, and National-Dobro moved to Chicago." -- Gruhn's Guide to Vintage Guitars, 2nd edition, page 2.

[MikeEdgerton]

If anyone was to take on the project of producing comprehensive and accurate histories of National, Dobro, Regal, Harmony, and Kay, they would likely have to bequeath the project to their grandchildren before it was complete. And that's without including Lyon & Healy and J.R. Stewart, or east coast companies such as Oscar Schmidt et. al.

And the relationships between various manufacturers were very different back then. Just from viewing the instruments, there's plenty of reason to believe that many of them cooperated with each other to a degree that we just don't see today.

At any rate, I don't think the exact details of who built what part is all that important as far as the instruments themselves are concerned. Dobros sound suspiciously like Dobros no matter what the year or peghead design, and Nationals also have a way of sounding just like themselves.

And Regal made some very good instruments when they wanted to.

Cafe member Hubert Pleijsier has covered a big piece of the L&H side of things with his book Washburn Prewar Instrument Styles. Bob Carlin made a dent in the Regal story with his book Regal Musical Instruments 1895-1955. People could take a run at Harmony and Kay and still miss them by a mile. Unfortunately there are some good books about many of the brands and bad books about the same. All you can go by is what you know here.

[rcc56]

While it is not directly relevant to the current conversation on resonator instruments, another book on Chicago instruments is "Washburn: Over One Hundred Years Of Fine Stringed Instruments," copyright 1996.
Covers the birth of the Lyon & Healy company through the partition of the company in the 1930's, and the acquistion and re-activation of the Washburn name in the late 20th century.

While it is far from comprehensive, it is informative, and attempts to be reasonably accurate. It does contain a little bit [but not enough] of info on Lyon & Healy and Washburn mandolins. Unfortunately, it does not include an index.

Some of the history books from this period, including this one and "Gibson's Fabulous Flat-top Guitars," were also attempts to market the company's current products at the time of publication.

[brunello97]

Cafe member Hubert Pleijsier has covered a big piece of the L&H side of things with his book Washburn Prewar Instrument Styles. Bob Carlin made a dent in the Regal story with his book Regal Musical Instruments 1895-1955. People could take a run at Harmony and Kay and still miss them by a mile. Unfortunately there are some good books about many of the brands and bad books about the same. All you can go by is what you know here.

Mike, I'd add in Bob Brozman's book on National Resonators which is full of great photos and some interesting background material on the company and their relationship with Dopyera bros.

It suffers from the sketchioso layout quality and poor reproduction quality that plagues this publisher, but I'm glad these books are out there, even if need of a good editor and in some cases a fact-checker.

I'm going to go through it again after dinner.

Mick

[MikeEdgerton]

I tip my hat to the early folks that were writing some of these books because they managed to preserve a lot of things that might have been lost otherwise but I have respected books from respected authors that do misidentify old instruments but again, it's what was thought to be right at the time. Kind of like reading the Harmony Date Codes. That world changed and there are still some later ones that don't make sense. People like Martin and Gibson that are somewhat continuous operations have some decent records. In Martin's case almost impeccable but the companies that were cranking out instruments for the masses didn't have quite the same type of systems and throw in the mail order houses and distributors that wanted their own brand names out there and world is really confusing.

[allenhopkins]

Well, of course the big gap in the C F Martin documentation is classifying the thousands of non-serial-numbered ukuleles that they produced. The Martin Ukulele: The Little Instrument That Helped Create a Guitar Giant by Tom Walsh can give you a good idea of when the features changed on the various uke models, but that's as close as you get -- dating by decade, sometimes.

Brozman's book, with its confusing format and digressive topics, can be frustrating, but I've gotten tons of useful information from it. The Autoharp Book, by Becky Blackley, came out in the 1980's and is equally informative regarding those instruments -- at least up through its date of publication. They're asking $70-$100 for it on eBay now.

These books are a very valuable resource, as are Carlin's on Regal and Pleijsier's on Washburn. Not necessarily exhaustive, but obvious "labors of love." And of course there's Mike Longworth's Martin Guitars: A History, which I've consulted innumerable times.

The somewhat incestuous relationships (well, that's a strong word!) among the various Chicago companies can make attribution of particular instruments a bit unreliable. Companies made components for each other, so, for example, the fact that Dobro and Regal resonator instruments can seem identical save for the label, makes you wonder who built what. Did Regal buy their resonator components from Dobro? Did Dobro get their wooden bodies built by Regal? Seems logical, but my opinion still rests on a bunch of assumptions.

[MikeEdgerton]

I have used that term often here to describe the relationships of the Chicago builders

As Regal was first before anything a manufacturer my money would be on Regal manufacturing bodies for Dobro. Dobro on the other hand was selling a design, a concept and I would have expected them to reach out to jobbers to accomplish their goals. Just my two cents.

[MikeEdgerton]

If the number on the back is indeed a Dobro serial number that would put it in 1931 production which would be fine if I could find another one with the serial number on the back of the headstock. It still looks like a Regal product to me.

[NickR]

The Regal and Dobro story is yet to be fully explored, it seems- or at least established in its entirety although the broad brush strokes are apparent. With regard to Bob Carlin's exploration of Regal, he mentions in his introduction that he has "steered clear of the resophonic instruments that resulted from Regal's licensing agreement with the Dobro Company."

[Patrick Bjorndal]

Thanks for the information. I guessed it was from the 30's by the patina on it. It's in great shape for its age. Not muck checking.