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Thread: Advice on a second attempt at a proper set up

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    Default Advice on a second attempt at a proper set up

    Hi folks - would appreciate a steer - I've had my new mandolin set up by a recommended tech, but sadly despite my Old Wave resting with him 3 times, it's still not working as I believe it should. In particular, I think the truss rod may have been overtightened, and there's a prominent buzzing on frets 6-10 on the D string. So I'm going to try again, and take it somewhere else in hope of greater success.

    My question is related to strings - I've realised I really am a flatwound person (didn't like the sound of either the J73 or J74s at all). On my old Eastman 515 I switched to Thomastik Mediums (which, it should be said, took to that mandolin like a dream!). I've just put D'Addario EFW74s on the Old Wave, and I like them - but suspect I'd probably go TI Hards at the next change...

    ...so question is - the string gauges are a little different between the TI Starks I will probably plump for and D'Addarios - do I need to commit first to the chosen string before I take it back in for the (hopefully) definitive set up?
    Old Wave A5, Eastman MD505

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    Registered User lowtone2's Avatar
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    Default Re: Advice on a second attempt at a proper set up

    Quote Originally Posted by danjec View Post
    Hi folks - would appreciate a steer - I've had my new mandolin set up by a recommended tech, but sadly despite my Old Wave resting with him 3 times, it's still not working as I believe it should. In particular, I think the truss rod may have been overtightened, and there's a prominent buzzing on frets 6-10 on the D string. So I'm going to try again, and take it somewhere else in hope of greater success.

    My question is related to strings - I've realised I really am a flatwound person (didn't like the sound of either the J73 or J74s at all). On my old Eastman 515 I switched to Thomastik Mediums (which, it should be said, took to that mandolin like a dream!). I've just put D'Addario EFW74s on the Old Wave, and I like them - but suspect I'd probably go TI Hards at the next change...

    ...so question is - the string gauges are a little different between the TI Starks I will probably plump for and D'Addarios - do I need to commit first to the chosen string before I take it back in for the (hopefully) definitive set up?
    Yes. You might want to get with the tech and make sure he at least thinks your string choice is appropriate for the instrument, but yes, provide a set of the strings you want to put on it.

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    Default Re: Advice on a second attempt at a proper set up

    A problem with Thomastiks is that they have a way of breaking if they are installed, then loosened, then tightened back up again.
    The repair person will have to get it pretty close to "right" before he installs the new strings.
    If it's a better grade instrument, seek out a highly experienced repair person rather than a "tech."

    Mandolins should be set up with the neck nearly straight once any high frets have been located and levelled, but a back-bow is no good.

    Reasonable spec for string height between the bottom of the strings and the top of the 12th fret is 4/64", measured with a good quality rule. Players with a light touch can usually get away with slightly less on the E string. Heavy players may need the action a little higher on the bass strings.

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    Default Re: Advice on a second attempt at a proper set up

    I have the action on my G string at a little less than 3/64", I can play it hard and it is loud in a jam. The setup has to be right tho to get this low of action.
    THE WORLD IS A BETTER PLACE JUST FOR YOUR SMILE!

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    Default Re: Advice on a second attempt at a proper set up

    The fingerboard has to be very true and the fret job has to be very accurate for <3/64" to work. Factory fingerboards and frets usually are not that well done. And the player's technique has to be very good.

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    Registered User Caberguy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Advice on a second attempt at a proper set up

    Heavier strings will increase the amount of relief, for sure.

    You can at least check this out yourself without having to take it back to the tech, and if the truss rod needs adjustment, there's no reason you can't do it yourself.
    Hold down the g string at the first fret, and at the body joint. While doing that, using the string as a straight edge, look to see if the string is touching any frets (most likely 6-7), there should be at least the hint of a gap there. If it's touching, you have a back bow (negative relief) and the truss rod needs to be loosened a touch.

    Keep in mind, also, that it can take a little time for the neck to fully respond to a trussrod adjustment. Entirely possible that it was fine when the tech adjusted it originally, but shifted a bit more after that (depends on the timing).

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    Default Re: Advice on a second attempt at a proper set up

    Quote Originally Posted by rcc56 View Post
    The fingerboard has to be very true and the fret job has to be very accurate for <3/64" to work. Factory fingerboards and frets usually are not that well done. And the player's technique has to be very good.
    You are right rcc56, most factory setups are not that good. I did my frets so I know they are right, and the mandolin is not a factory mandolin. I have that setup on most of my mandolins, unless they have very light strings, which need more room to wobble.
    THE WORLD IS A BETTER PLACE JUST FOR YOUR SMILE!

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    Default Re: Advice on a second attempt at a proper set up

    Caberguy's truss rod check is a good place to start.

    If the string is indeed touching the frets in the middle of the neck and you have the right kind of wrench [very important!], loosen the strings moderately and turn the adjusting nut counter-clockwise about 1/8 turn. Tune it up and re-check. It may take an hour or two for the neck to relax into position. Repeat if necessary.

    Then, if you have an adjustable bridge, you can set your action. I usually adjust the bridge with the inner strings loosened, and only the outer strings tuned to pitch. If that doesn't take care of it, find a good repair person.

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    Registered User Eric Platt's Avatar
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    Default Re: Advice on a second attempt at a proper set up

    You might need to change when going from EFW74 to TI stark. When I went the opposite on the Coombe, was able to lower the action slightly with the D'Addarios. (FWIW, on this particular instrument, the D'Addarios are a touch better match than the Thomastiks. At least to my ears, right now.)

    Generally I run about .050" action on both the Coombe and the Stradolin. Have a feeling the latter was set up by a pro at one time before I got it. The Northfield is about .060" and that works fine too. (Probably could/should lower it, but am too lazy right now).
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    Default Re: Advice on a second attempt at a proper set up

    A brief update - found a great luthier locally (who was very familiar with mandolins) who immediately spotted a number of things to tidy up in the (re)setup, inc adjusting the nut, the truss rod, the bridge, the bridge plate, and a fret level…!

    Strung up now with TI Starks, playing and sounding dreamy. Whilst a little annoying to have had to do the job twice, I’m now really happy with the setup on this Bussman beauty and can get busy getting to know it.

    Such a relief! (no pun intended).

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    Default Re: Advice on a second attempt at a proper set up

    In general, “guitar techs” are far from luthiers with the understanding of these little beasts we love so much.
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    "If brains was lard, that boy couldn't grease a very big skillet" J.D. Clampett

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    Default Re: Advice on a second attempt at a proper set up

    The problem is that guys whose knowledge is limited to turning screws on adjustable electric guitar bridges, over-adjusting truss rods, and filing nut slots too deep are now starting to call themselves "luthiers." As a result, the term is developing a negative connotation.

    I had been working on instruments for many years before I started calling myself a luthier. It was only after I had driven 1000 frets and learned how to pull flat top guitar bridges cleanly and make new ones from scratch that I thought I had earned the title.

    But now, since the term "luthier" is being used indiscriminately, seasoned repair people are going to have to find another term to describe themselves.

    For the record, the principles for putting frets, truss rods, nuts, and bridges in order are the same for all fretted instruments. But you have to know what those principles are and have the skill to achieve them. The only difference between setting up a mandolin and a guitar is knowing what the suitable measurements are for setting the action. To put a banjo in order does require a little bit of specific knowledge, since we have to deal with heads and coordinator rods.

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    Registered User JiminRussia's Avatar
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    Default Re: Advice on a second attempt at a proper set up

    Much of a set up is dependent on the order that the various steps are taken in. IMHO the order should be as follows:
    1. Tune up all strings.
    2. Set the bridge in the correct place on the top. The fast way to check that is to play the bell tone on the 12th fret and compare it to the fretted note,on the same string. Do this on all four courses of strings. This will get you pretty close to the sweet spot, but we will address this again later.
    3. Adjust the truss rod. This is pretty much a personal preference thing. I personally like a zero to minimal offset. Check this with a slotted straight edge and look for the gap under the straight edge at the 7th or 8th fret. Again different people do it differently, but either one will work.
    4. Set the string height at the first fret. Check the string height on all strings and use the LOWEST string as your reference to set the others. Now that the strings are all on the same plane, you can raise or lower the action at the first fret by either cutting a new nut, shimming the nut or sanding the bottom down. Only use the correct slot files to cut the nut slots. It is highly recommended that if you are not familiar with this process, to not putz with it. It is the MOST difficult part of a set up. What is the correct height here? Again it is personal preference.
    5. Set the action to your preferred neight at the 12th fret by adjusting the bridge.
    6. Check the intonation by playing it and make the final bridge placement. This can mean almost microscopic placement changes, so if you have OCD as I do this can take a while.

    BUZZES: if the buzz is on any of the first 5 or 6 frets look first to the nut end of the instrument for the culprit. If the buzz is on the last frets, look first to the bridge end. That is not to say that the problem must be there, it’s just that it’s the most probable place to be. Some other possibilities are the nut slots are too wide or too tight (from using the wrong size file to cut the slot). Take the tailpiece cover off and see if the buzz goes away. NOT an uncommon problem. Check the washers on the tuners. Are any of them loose?

    O.K., now you know why a good set up costs so much. Good luck.
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