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Thread: Bill Monroe's Blue Moon of Kentucky Inspired By Jimmy Rodgers?

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    Monroe junky Billy1's Avatar
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    Default Bill Monroe's Blue Moon of Kentucky Inspired By Jimmy Rodgers?

    I know Mr. Monroe was a big fan of Jimmy Rodgers and while listening to Rodgers this morning {my 5 yr old boy loves Monroe and Rodgers} I heard this song for the first time. I wonder if Bill might have heard it also and perhaps received a little inspiration for Blue Moon of Kentucky. Give it a listen and tell me what you think. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMQ881XJzf8

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    Ursus Mandolinus Fretbear's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bill Monroe's Blue Moon of Kentucky Inspired By Jimmy Rodgers

    Quote Originally Posted by Billy1 View Post
    I know Mr. Monroe was a big fan of Jimmy Rodgers
    The Singing Brakeman's influence upon anyone even peripherally attached to Early Country Music cannot be overstated. I just finished Mark Eliot's "The Hag", and his influence upon Merle Haggard (along with Lefty Frizzell) was complete. Mr. Monroe liked to pretend that everything he did was "His", but he borrowed and stole freely, as does any great Artist. WSM's Opry debut was, as everyone knows, "Muleskinner Blues", which he recorded on the Bluebird Label in 1940, a full decade after J.R. recorded his (and George Vaughan's) composition in 1930.

    But wait a minute.....

    The song tells the tale of a down-on-his-luck muleskinner, approaching "the Captain", looking for work:

    Tom Dickson's "Labor Blues"

    The first verse of the song is similar to Tom Dickson's 1928 recording "Labor Blues" in which the exchange is clearly between a white boss and an African-American worker who is quitting the job, not applying for it:

    It’s "good mornin’ Captain", ‘e said "good mornin’ Shine",
    Said "good mornin’ Captain", said "good mornin’ Shine".
    "T’ain’t nuthin’ the matter, Captain, but I just ain’t gwine.

    "I don’t mind workin’, Captain, from sun to sun,
    I don’t mind workin’, Captain, from sun to sun.
    But I want my money, Captain, when pay-day come."

    "Captain" was a traditional term for the white boss; "Shine" is a derogatory expression for "African-American". Dickson was black. After the narrator rebels and quits because he is not being paid, he turns his attention to his "Mississippi gal" and the remaining lyrics concern their romance. In this 12-bar blues recording, Muleskinning is not mentioned, and the remaining Dickson lyrics differ from Rodgers', whose other Blue Yodels also used verses previously recorded by Blues musicians, such as Blind Lemon Jefferson.

    The term "Mule Skinner", slang for muleteer, is a driver of mules, and has nothing to do with removing the animal's hide.
    But Amsterdam was always good for grieving
    And London never fails to leave me blue
    And Paris never was my kinda town
    So I walked around with the Ft. Worth Blues

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    Default Re: Bill Monroe's Blue Moon of Kentucky Inspired By Jimmy Rodgers

    The two songs are strikingly similar as both are in a major key and in 3/4 time.

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    Registered User Bob Buckingham's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bill Monroe's Blue Moon of Kentucky Inspired By Jimmy Rodgers

    The whole blue genre is full of very similar pieces, reworkings and new interpretations of earlier versions. We call this the folk process. Rodgers was the best selling and most influential musician of his time and his influence was/is felt in country and blues genres for decades after his untimely death. A deeper look will most likely reveal many variations on these themes. You might want to take this question to the Country Blues Forum called WeenieCampbell. It would be interesting to see their responses to this topic.

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    Default Re: Bill Monroe's Blue Moon of Kentucky Inspired By Jimmy Rodgers

    In my opinion, which is worth just what you pay for it - zilch - Rodgers definitely gave Monroe a lot of real inspiration for his Blue Moon of Kentucky. Monroe definitely had an original composition with it, but the influence seems obvious to me.

    And yes, Jimmie may have been the most influential “superstar” of country music in his day, as one of the earliest to record, whose records sold all over the country and who starred in film shorts shown in movie theatres everywhere and replayed on early television. His influence can’t be overstated, it was equal to and maybe exceeded the Carters in some ways. Virtually all of the earliest country music stars imitated his style at some point and in some way in their careers.
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    Registered User Charles E.'s Avatar
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    Default Re: Bill Monroe's Blue Moon of Kentucky Inspired By Jimmy Rodgers

    Dickenson's "Labor Blues"....



    Jimmy Rodgers "Mule Skinner Blues"....

    Charley

    A bunch of stuff with four strings

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    Registered User Charles E.'s Avatar
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    Default Re: Bill Monroe's Blue Moon of Kentucky Inspired By Jimmy Rodgers

    Not so sure about the Jimmy Rodgers "Roll Along Kentucky Moon" and Bill's "Blue Moon Of Kentucky". But it could be.
    Charley

    A bunch of stuff with four strings

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    Default Re: Bill Monroe's Blue Moon of Kentucky Inspired By Jimmy Rodgers

    Quote Originally Posted by Fretbear View Post
    The Singing Brakeman's influence upon anyone even peripherally attached to Early Country Music cannot be overstated. I just finished Mark Eliot's "The Hag", and his influence upon Merle Haggard (along with Lefty Frizzell) was complete. Mr. Monroe liked to pretend that everything he did was "His", but he borrowed and stole freely, as does any great Artist. WSM's Opry debut was, as everyone knows, "Muleskinner Blues", which he recorded on the Bluebird Label in 1940, a full decade after J.R. recorded his (and George Vaughan's) composition in 1930.

    But wait a minute.....

    The song tells the tale of a down-on-his-luck muleskinner, approaching "the Captain", looking for work:

    Tom Dickson's "Labor Blues"

    The first verse of the song is similar to Tom Dickson's 1928 recording "Labor Blues" in which the exchange is clearly between a white boss and an African-American worker who is quitting the job, not applying for it:

    It’s "good mornin’ Captain", ‘e said "good mornin’ Shine",
    Said "good mornin’ Captain", said "good mornin’ Shine".
    "T’ain’t nuthin’ the matter, Captain, but I just ain’t gwine.

    "I don’t mind workin’, Captain, from sun to sun,
    I don’t mind workin’, Captain, from sun to sun.
    But I want my money, Captain, when pay-day come."

    "Captain" was a traditional term for the white boss; "Shine" is a derogatory expression for "African-American". Dickson was black. After the narrator rebels and quits because he is not being paid, he turns his attention to his "Mississippi gal" and the remaining lyrics concern their romance. In this 12-bar blues recording, Muleskinning is not mentioned, and the remaining Dickson lyrics differ from Rodgers', whose other Blue Yodels also used verses previously recorded by Blues musicians, such as Blind Lemon Jefferson.

    The term "Mule Skinner", slang for muleteer, is a driver of mules, and has nothing to do with removing the animal's hide.
    Not sure about "everything" or "liked to pretend". E.g., Monroe put his name next to Lester Flatt's on the songs that Flatt brought to the band. But he never pretended that he wrote these songs. Listen to his introduction of Cabin Home on the Hill on the live Bean Blossom album.

    Monroe also bought songs, e.g., Goodbye Old Pal which he bought from Cliff Carlisle for 15 dollars (I heard him say that on stage)

    And about Mule Skinner (whatever that has to do with this topic): you make it appear that George Vaughan (a k a Vaughn Horton) cowrote Mule Skinner with Rodgers. (one source on the internet even states that Rodgers revised Horton's song!) That's highly improbable as Horton was 18-19 years old the year Mule Skinner was recorded. The truth is that Horton supplied the lyrics for "NEW Mule Skinner Blues that Monroe recorded in 1950.

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    Ursus Mandolinus Fretbear's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bill Monroe's Blue Moon of Kentucky Inspired By Jimmy Rodgers

    Quote Originally Posted by ralph johansson View Post
    Not sure about "everything" or "liked to pretend".
    Any student of Monroe's knows exactly what that means...

    Quote Originally Posted by ralph johansson View Post
    And about Mule Skinner (whatever that has to do with this topic)
    One of WSM's best known numbers, and whose debut resulted in a lifelong membership with The Opry, written and recorded by the man whose influence on him the OP is inquiring about...
    But Amsterdam was always good for grieving
    And London never fails to leave me blue
    And Paris never was my kinda town
    So I walked around with the Ft. Worth Blues

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    Monroe junky Billy1's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bill Monroe's Blue Moon of Kentucky Inspired By Jimmy Rodgers

    There are many lyrics in Roll on Ky Moon that are very similar to the lyrics in Blue Moon of Ky so I’d say he might have gotten a few ideas from it, which is perfectly fine for Blue Moon of Ky us definitely a Monroe original. I just wondered if it was maybe a song that caught Mr. Bill’s ear.

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    Default Re: Bill Monroe's Blue Moon of Kentucky Inspired By Jimmy Rodgers

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Buckingham View Post
    The whole blue genre is full of very similar pieces, reworkings and new interpretations of earlier versions. We call this the folk process. Rodgers was the best selling and most influential musician of his time and his influence was/is felt in country and blues genres for decades after his untimely death. A deeper look will most likely reveal many variations on these themes. You might want to take this question to the Country Blues Forum called WeenieCampbell. It would be interesting to see their responses to this topic.
    Not sure what "the blue genre" means. But we're dealing here with copyrighted, commercially recorded, songs so I don't think we can talk about a "folk process" here. Clearly the two songs are of vastly different character: Bill Halley's song is much more refined, both lyrically and musically, than Monroe's. It has a verse using minor chords you wouldn't find in a Monroe song. And the bridge actually starts in the dominant key (not just the dominant chord). It also has a much more profiled melody.

    I would like to know more about Halley who also composed Miss the Mississippi and You, which is a really great song with its own twist on the ubiquitous IV-iv-I sequence,

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    Default Re: Bill Monroe's Blue Moon of Kentucky Inspired By Jimmy Rodgers

    The extent of J.R.'s influence is so far reaching, it's almost hard to believe.

    While I am and always will be a fan of Muddy Waters and Robert Johnson, I believe Howlin' Wolf (Chester Arthur Burnett) was the greatest African-American Bluesman there ever was.

    Jimmy Rodgers was Howlin' Wolf's childhood idol. When he tried to emulate Rodgers's yodel his efforts sounded more like a growl or a howl.

    "I couldn't do no yodelin'," Barry Gifford quoted him as saying in Rolling Stone, "so I turned to howlin'. And it's done me just fine."
    But Amsterdam was always good for grieving
    And London never fails to leave me blue
    And Paris never was my kinda town
    So I walked around with the Ft. Worth Blues

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    Default Re: Bill Monroe's Blue Moon of Kentucky Inspired By Jimmy Rodgers

    Quote Originally Posted by Billy1 View Post
    I know Mr. Monroe was a big fan of Jimmy Rodgers and while listening to Rodgers this morning {my 5 yr old boy loves Monroe and Rodgers} I heard this song for the first time. I wonder if Bill might have heard it also and perhaps received a little inspiration for Blue Moon of Kentucky. Give it a listen and tell me what you think. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMQ881XJzf8
    Exactly what do you know, and how? And what does "big" mean?

    All I know is that Monroe apparently was fond of doing some of Rodgers' blues numbers, which he sang with a much deeper blues feel, and performed with a much more insistent beat (unlike Rodgers he also knew how to count bars and beats). Apart from these numbers (which he recorded for Victor or Columbia) he recorded eight songs connected with Rodgers for Decca, in 1951: three (two blues and a cowboy song) with bluegrass instrumentation and five with session musicians. The idea was probably to issue a tribute album but the electric numbers didn't come off, probably since Monroe had a very poor feel for the material. That may very well have been the case with much of Rodgers' extremely varied output. I doubt that Monroe was attracted to such slow ballads as Roll On. But he may very well have heard it, and maybe, just maybe, felt that the world needed another song with Kentucky and Moon in it. But then I wouldn't use the word "inspiration" for the process that created this little ditty.

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    Default Re: Bill Monroe's Blue Moon of Kentucky Inspired By Jimmy Rodgers

    Quote Originally Posted by Charles E. View Post
    Not so sure about the Jimmy Rodgers "Roll Along Kentucky Moon" and Bill's "Blue Moon Of Kentucky". But it could be.
    I don’t think anyone could be sure about it except the late Mr. Monroe. But a (mostly) interesting discussion.
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    Default Re: Bill Monroe's Blue Moon of Kentucky Inspired By Jimmy Rodgers

    Quote Originally Posted by Billy1 View Post
    There are many lyrics in Roll on Ky Moon that are very similar to the lyrics in Blue Moon of Ky so I’d say he might have gotten a few ideas from it, which is perfectly fine for Blue Moon of Ky us definitely a Monroe original. I just wondered if it was maybe a song that caught Mr. Bill’s ear.
    I agree with you, and there can really be little doubt that Bill was familiar with Rodgers’ catalog, nor that he would have been especially interested in a song involving his home state which he dearly loved.
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    Monroe junky Billy1's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bill Monroe's Blue Moon of Kentucky Inspired By Jimmy Rodgers

    Quote Originally Posted by ralph johansson View Post
    Exactly what do you know, and how? And what does "big" mean?

    All I know is that Monroe apparently was fond of doing some of Rodgers' blues numbers, which he sang with a much deeper blues feel, and performed with a much more insistent beat (unlike Rodgers he also knew how to count bars and beats). Apart from these numbers (which he recorded for Victor or Columbia) he recorded eight songs connected with Rodgers for Decca, in 1951: three (two blues and a cowboy song) with bluegrass instrumentation and five with session musicians. The idea was probably to issue a tribute album but the electric numbers didn't come off, probably since Monroe had a very poor feel for the material. That may very well have been the case with much of Rodgers' extremely varied output. I doubt that Monroe was attracted to such slow ballads as Roll On. But he may very well have heard it, and maybe, just maybe, felt that the world needed another song with Kentucky and Moon in it. But then I wouldn't use the word "inspiration" for the process that created this little ditty.
    Nitpick much? Actually I “knew” Mr. Bill and spoke with him on many occasions during the 80’s. I have heard it mentioned from several reliable sources including James Monroe that Bill was a “big” fan of Rodgers.

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    Default Re: Bill Monroe's Blue Moon of Kentucky Inspired By Jimmy Rodgers

    Quote Originally Posted by Billy1 View Post
    Nitpick much? Actually I “knew” Mr. Bill and spoke with him on many occasions during the 80’s. I have heard it mentioned from several reliable sources including James Monroe that Bill was a “big” fan of Rodgers.
    And why wouldn’t he be? I think many of us are big fans of Mr. Rodgers. I love his music and his style.
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    Default Re: Bill Monroe's Blue Moon of Kentucky Inspired By Jimmy Rodgers

    I doubt Jimmie Rodgers couldn’t count bars & beats, lol. The fact that he does add (or drop) beats and/or bars is not a problem for the fans of troubadours like Rodgers, Zimmerman, and other solo folk musicians. It’s a common phenomenon, sure to irritate some who may care too deeply about such things. I don’t think Rodgers, nor Bobby, nor many others have trouble with cadence and time when necessary to play in ensembles. Again, my opinion.
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    Default Re: Bill Monroe's Blue Moon of Kentucky Inspired By Jimmy Rodgers

    Quote Originally Posted by Fretbear View Post
    Any student of Monroe's knows exactly what that means...
    You wrote "everything" and I gave several counterexamples although one single example is enough to disprove your statement. To these examples I might add that VIrginia Stauffer was fully credited for the songs she brought to the band and Hazel Smith for "Thank God for Kentucky" although Monroe and Ralph Lewis revised the melody. (Seems Bessie Lee was less fortunate in that respect).

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    Default Re: Bill Monroe's Blue Moon of Kentucky Inspired By Jimmy Rodgers

    Quote Originally Posted by Billy1 View Post
    There are many lyrics in Roll on Ky Moon that are very similar to the lyrics in Blue Moon of Ky so I’d say he might have gotten a few ideas from it, which is perfectly fine for Blue Moon of Ky us definitely a Monroe original. I just wondered if it was maybe a song that caught Mr. Bill’s ear.
    ...you mean to say 'Roll ALONG Kentucky Moon'..not -"roll on" ?...where have you heard "many lyrics" ?...all I have heard are the lyrics on
    the record ?...don't see any significant comparison between the two!

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    Default Re: Bill Monroe's Blue Moon of Kentucky Inspired By Jimmy Rodgers

    I think its more of a "country style" thing like 12 bar blues or 1-4-5 songs, they are bound to sound similar including the melodies and lyrics.
    Sure Jimmy Rogers and Bill Monroe were writing and playing copy-write material, but working with a very similar set of song writing components drawn mostly from contemporary folk music. Was Monroe deliberately copying Rodgers?, probably not, at least not intentionally. Jimmy Roger's influence on later performers is akin to the Beatles influence on 70's and 80s music or even Bill Monroe's influence on 70's up to modern Blue Grass. So it would be unusual for Monroe to not be influenced by Jimmy Rodgers.
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