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Thread: About "musicality" (or whatever the correct description might be)

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    Default About "musicality" (or whatever the correct description might be)

    So, accomplished players, tell me about your journey developing into being able to play "musically" instead of just playing the instrument.

    I've been at this long enough where I know a bunch of songs, play somewhat cleanly and can change volume and speed to try to make the melody have some "feel" to it...

    But listening to a recording of a few songs... there's just no... I don't know. It's not like music, it's like a machine interpretation.

    So is there a point where you're easy to listen to? Where you don't sound like you're just making a string of notes?

    I think if it's an elusive talent, I'll never get there as I am not a musical human, or maybe it just happens over many more years? How did it go with you?

    I'm hoping this makes sense. Thanks

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    Default Re: About "musicality" (or whatever the correct description might

    I believe it a lot like cooking, you can throw together a bunch of ingredients and call it a meal or you can make gourmet magic happen with the right technique and skills.

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    Default Re: About "musicality" (or whatever the correct description might

    Quote Originally Posted by Hudmister View Post
    I believe it a lot like cooking, you can throw together a bunch of ingredients and call it a meal or you can make gourmet magic happen with the right technique and skills.
    How about cooking versus baking? I’m told that baking requires strict and reproducible process - as do members of a symphony orchestra. Cooking is process with improvisation, tasting, revision - maybe a different mindset.
    So, a ‘machine interpretation’ is often appropriate; personal color, other times.
    I’m no musician, but in current circumstances have been playing a lot, and those separate notes have been grouping themselves into phrases, and the phrases connecting up without conscious thought into what seems like tunes. Never happened before, and have nobody else’s opinions on the output!
    Pretty clear, though, that putting in the hours has a lot to do with it.
    And those notes sent into the air are heard differently by everyone; the music is created in the heads of the audience. (Really big IMHO)

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    Default Re: About "musicality" (or whatever the correct description might

    I have thought a lot about this, and even wrote a blog about it: here.
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    Default Re: About "musicality" (or whatever the correct description might

    Some of it is the notes you leave out, the virtuosity you don't display, the sensitivity you have to the "feel" of a song -- which may vary widely, depending on circumstances. A high-speed, "competitive" jam vs. a nuanced, more laid-back performance, e.g.

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    Default Re: About "musicality" (or whatever the correct description might

    In re-reading and rethinking things, I would add that musicality involves playing expressively. By that I DO NOT mean expressing myself - I haven't had a life significantly different from everyone else. Nobody would read the story of my life. I mean expressing what is in the music. What is in the tune. Finding the narrative of the tune and doing everything I know, volume, phrasing, speed, changes in speed, tremolo, avoiding tremolo, double stops, all the tools, to express best the story the tune is telling.

    I did a little thinking about tunes as well, that may be relevant. Here.
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    Default Re: About "musicality" (or whatever the correct description might

    Quote Originally Posted by JeffD View Post
    In re-reading and rethinking things, I would add that musicality involves playing expressively.
    Thanks, this and the blog post gave me a lot to unpack, it's right where my brain has been lately. I'm getting over trying to become faster or more technical and would rather let the songs breathe and come to life.

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    Default Re: About "musicality" (or whatever the correct description might

    Quote Originally Posted by crash2 View Post
    Thanks, this and the blog post gave me a lot to unpack, it's right where my brain has been lately. I'm getting over trying to become faster or more technical and would rather let the songs breathe and come to life.
    Then yea, figure out what the tune itself is trying to do, and help it along. I think your new journey is, in many many ways much more important that getting faster and more gymnastic.

    It is not either or of course, but when you are on the horns of a tune that needs more brilliance than you can muster, be inspired to go back to getting brilliant, scales and arpeggios, exercises and all, but your work be inspired by eventually being able to do the particular tune justice, to come back and play it as it deserves.
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    Default Re: About "musicality" (or whatever the correct description might

    Musicians who engage me emotionally through their musicality seem to be those who are able to move from playing or singing the song well, into a place where they live within the moment, subjectively inhabiting the piece of music they're playing. It seems to be connected that ability to stop being completely objective, self aware and concerned with how it will be received by others, instead focussing on how it is perceived by their own self. In my experience it is not necessarily an on/off haven't/have ability, it is grown into. Like any art or emotion it is the result of past experience and the "soil" in which those experiences were grown. We only have one lifetime so it can be hard to successfully grow in many environments, so playing convincingly and engagingly in many different genres can be a stumbling block to being musical on the terms of genres we are not so experienced in.

    I tend to have to take (a lot of) time out and pursue new styles by dedicating periods to proper immersion in a new style.
    If I don't I'm never really convinced enough of my own understanding to really let go. Certainly not enough to feel confident that I'm really doing things musically by the boundaries and expectations of the genre as would be understood by someone fully immersed in it.
    Once understood enough to convince myself, I then find it is more successful at engaging others.

    However I no longer let this inhibit me from playing out, as I've also understood that it's a progressive journey and the audience will also have different levels of exposure & immersion which will inform their expectations. So often performers can engage a large section of those present while not being entirely convinced that they're quite ready or very convincing. Often srprising themselves with the generous reaction of the listeners who can respond to a degree the performer may not even share, because their skills are such that the audience feel convinced and can emotionally relax into the performance anyway. I'm so glad that this is not just dependent on my musical ability, but also dependent on the receivers, otherwise I would be inhibited into never beginning to play out for others.

    Once you can stop caring too much a door eventually opens and you suddenly find yourself relaxing enough to really enter the room of that genre and enjoy the space. The more exposure you have to how others do it, the more reference points you have and things you will notice. This in turn adds elements to your understanding which you will adopt, further convincing yourself that you're doing it right and allowing you to let yourself go & be convinced by your own playing. Although you will also have loads of "oh shoot, I never realised that" moments where you will think back to all those times you never quite got it because you never knew that subtlety mattered so much to the style.

    You're obviously open to really listening to yourself play, which is important to awareness and understanding, but don't let it get too much or you might be the source of your own tension & actually inhibit really relaxing into the style you're playing. I'd be tempted to suggest that when you notice the robotic aspect listening to yourself, switch to listening to someone else whose playing engages you instead. Don't over analyse their playing, just relax into it & listen to the flow. You can go back & get the licks & tricks & analyse stuff on another occasion. For this you need to let your understanding rely more on the subconscious overall immersion in the moment. Then this will percolate into your 'gut understanding' of the music.

    It's a life time's journey & none of us are quite there yet.
    Eoin



    "Forget that anyone is listening to you and always listen to yourself" - Fryderyk Chopin

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    Default Re: About "musicality" (or whatever the correct description might

    When something's not happening, it's very often a lack of rhythmic wherewithal. Rhythm is the backbone and the life blood of music. Phrasing, flow, syncopation, accent, nuance, vitality - all emanate from rhythm. Think of a computer generated 'vocalization' - compared with normal human speech.

    The merest, simplest form can be highly expressive and musical, if the player has sufficient rhythmic wherewithal.

    Making it overly binary here - the problem is not in the fretting hand, but rather in the picking hand (and of course between the ears).

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    Default Re: About "musicality" (or whatever the correct description might

    It takes a LOT more hours than anyone imagines to play well and beautifully.It is in the thousands of hours. While talent is not completely and entirely a myth the work and playing time put in is a larger part of the equation by at least a factor of ten.

    A lot of people give up saying they do not have the talent. They would have gotten there if they put in the extra ten or twenty thousand hours like the person they were comparing themselves to.

    For the average person look at the amount of time you spend watching teevee or playing computer games compared to playing music. Then reverse those numbers.

    The downside of modern communications is that we have access to a lot of music and are saturated by it. Most of that music is played by people who are full time professionals, many of whom started at a young ages and work at it full time 40 to 60 hours per week. That is a very high bar to match. It is like comparing your basketball skills to an NBA player or golfing to a PGA tour pro.

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    Default Re: About "musicality" (or whatever the correct description might

    It gets a lot less elusive after you spend a bunch of time playing with other people.
    A couple years in, now, and still learning!
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    Default Re: About "musicality" (or whatever the correct description might

    Short answer: Live in the woodshed.

    I'll never be an accomplished player, and I don't aim for "musically." Life is short — and shorter every day. So if my playing sounds good, I'm happy. If it doesn't, I work on it — which also makes me happy.
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    Default Re: About "musicality" (or whatever the correct description might

    Quote Originally Posted by CarlM View Post
    It takes a LOT more hours than anyone imagines to play well and beautifully.It is in the thousands of hours. While talent is not completely and entirely a myth the work and playing time put in is a larger part of the equation by at least a factor of ten..
    I agree. I would only add that in my experience, it is quite possible (I was doing it) to practice a lot and working very hard, but only on the technical aspects of playing, and miss entirely the beautiful, musical, expressive part of playing. There are likely more than a few who through hard work and practice are technically proficient, perhaps even athletic, at playing, but woefully deficient on playing musically.
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    Default Re: About "musicality" (or whatever the correct description might

    While I certainly agree that shedding is standard approach, I would also emphasize that much toward the pursuit of 'musicality' can be achieved outside of the shed (or, perhaps broadening the concept of the shed to include the total ecology of the learner/player). Again, it's to do with 'ears' - and listening. In a nutshell, I think it can be said that the goal is to improve, enhance and optimize musical cognition. But this is a multifaceted constellation - the musician draws on everything from life experience - it all goes into the music. Listen acutely. Music is about hearing, and to be understanding of what one hears...not just on the technical level, but all; not only techne, but psyche.

  26. #16

    Default Re: About "musicality" (or whatever the correct description might

    In Victor Wooten's book the Music Lesson, he makes a significant point about music teaching greatly overemphasizing what he refers to as "notes". As notes he includes chords, melody, anything that traditional music theory focuses on regarding pitch.

    The Music Lesson, as a book, really is about playing musically. He breaks down music into ten parts, all of which he says are somewhat arbitrary. He puts groove at the front of everything. I have yet to come up with a satisfactory, clear definition of groove but like pornography, I know it when I hear it. Groove seems to encompass flow and being together rhythmically so the music is not just a bunch of herky jerky individual notes with no relation to one another. In a group setting it requires everyone being rhythmically together. The moment I first started to understand what groove means was a night I was playing with a group on stage. We were playing the Gram Parson's song In My Hour of Darkness. All four of us fell into the same rhythmic and timing groove almost by accident. You could dance or move with the music. The bar crowd, talking and partying up to that point, became silent, hushed till the end, then burst into applause. That groove was very powerful.

    Sometimes in practice I will play a rhythm part with the chords to establish a rhythmic groove before messing with the melody. Backing tracks can help clear up unconscious rhythm issues also. Often we slow down or hiccup in the difficult parts or at a hand shift without realizing it interrupting the flow.

    Wooten also covers things like dynamics and articulation. These are important to playing musically. They do not get taught as much as notes and rhythm because they are difficult to teach. Unlike notes, where you are either hitting the right note or not, articulation and dynamics cannot be put into a neat package where the teacher can say do this exactly so and it will be right. Interpretation and individual voice arise here. With beginners it is hard to teach because they are having enough difficulty forming chords and hitting the right notes and timing let alone acquiring these other factors.

    One teacher I go to periodically emphasizes letting the notes ring into one another as you play rather than cutting them off prematurely as one of the first steps toward playing musically. He had a guitar student who wanted to understand why his playing did not sound all that musical. He recorded himself then listened to a recording of Doc Watson playing the same song. He slowed the recordings down and found Doc did not let the notes end till he had moved to the next one while he did. The classical players call this legato.

    He teaches dynamics as the next step. One of the big differences between amateur and pro players is that amateurs play everything at one volume level. Practicing deliberately altering volume, playing as soft as you can and as loud as you can, alternating these things helps acquire some dynamics. Even being aware of it and paying attention to it is a start.

    Then articulation, Is every note you play hitting a note directly? How you hit them is as important as hitting the right note. Is your instrument a machine gun? Or do you slur into or out of some with hammer ons, slides, pull offs and bends? Again dynamics and how much or little do you let the note ring? These are artistic choices. Russ Barenberg teaches to listen closely to vocal recordings and try to emulate the human voice. Good singers do not always exactly hit the notes but will slide or bend in and out of them at times to gain expression. And also use dynamics to raise and lower the power. Even in speaking, monotone voices put people to sleep.

    Finally rhythm. Great players play with the beat, sometimes getting a little ahead or behind it but always, always staying in time. This is also important to not sounding like a robot.

    There is a lot to all of this. That is why it takes the hours it does.
    Last edited by CarlM; Mar-29-2022 at 3:23pm.

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  28. #17

    Default Re: About "musicality" (or whatever the correct description might

    Quote Originally Posted by CarlM View Post
    ... He puts groove at the front of everything.
    I would agree with everything in the above post, except that I conceive of 'groove' as mostly a function of rhythm (or rhythmic wherewithal) - which is why I regard 'rhythm' as the most essential and vital musical element - as it encompasses all of this - even dynamics and ornaments with their rhythmic deployment. Patterns - connecting it all - form.

    Speaking of bassists, Mark Shatz has a video where he demonstrates development of a musical idea or phrase using only two notes - to emphasize the primacy and capacity of rhythmic deployment.

    But getting back to the OP, understand that it will take time, and attention. And that recording yourself (and listening back critically, and not being satisfied with what you hear) is a powerful learning tool.

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    Registered User Frankdolin's Avatar
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    Default Re: About "musicality" (or whatever the correct description might

    I'm sure it's been said before. A song is a poem with notes, with or without words. In a poem there are no unimportant words. Each word has meaning and must be there. And each word has a very specific way of being spoken, depending on need. Then those words have to work together with a certain rythum to tell a comprehensive story. A song, any song is the same thing. The notes are all important and have to work together. Otherwise it's just a bowl full of scrabble letters.IMHO

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  31. #19

    Default Re: About "musicality" (or whatever the correct description might

    Lots of good thoughtful and deep discussion on this. The 2 things that jump out at me that helped me get "there" (although I would argue I am still en route)

    1. Playing with other - when I started going to jams it made a huge difference in my playing in so many ways. You really see where some of the gaps are in your musicality and where to focus your attention. - you know if playing with others is important to you, which it was for me. If you think of music as a language it is really hard to get fluent sitting in a room reading a book and practicing by yourself. To really reach fluency you need to dialogue with others.

    2. Getting off the written page. Part of this goes hand in hand with playing with others. If you are at a jam and don't know what is about to be called and it isn't in your repertoire you have to learn how to listen and hunt and peck for notes. Also, and this seemed very intimidating to me early on but slowing down recordings of things you like and learning how to play them by ear. Or atleast cross referencing tab with recorded material. They say that if you are just learning off tab you are missing a big piece of the music since it is just off a paper and could be mechanical as you described.

  32. #20

    Default Re: About "musicality" (or whatever the correct description might

    To everyone, thanks. There's so much here to absorb and mess with.

    I'm really glad I asked -- it's helped me look at the next stage of the journey in a much more interesting way. Seriously, thanks.

  33. #21

    Default Re: About "musicality" (or whatever the correct description might

    Yo-Yo Ma talks about human expression vs perfection. Of course he gets closer to perfection than any of us will but...as he gets there he comes to the conclusion that it's all about expression and communication. NFI with his masterclass but I think his message is relevant to this discussion.
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    Innocent Bystander JeffD's Avatar
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    Default Re: About "musicality" (or whatever the correct description might

    Quote Originally Posted by crash2 View Post
    I'm really glad I asked -- it's helped me look at the next stage of the journey in a much more interesting way. Seriously, thanks.
    Wells Fargo - the next stage.
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    Default Re: About "musicality" (or whatever the correct description might

    I don't think musicality requires any kind of knowledge of the staff or chords or keys or modes or scales, kind of like the cooking example, a "musical" person just knows what ingredients go into "good music" or "music most people would like".
    Passion and Confidence, technique and approach, what you omit, can define a piece or performance.
    I am not one of these people, I generally rely on a lot of notes and fast runs where I can for some "flash", not always appropriate.
    It can take me weeks if not months to "comprehend" a simple fiddle tune, others are simply know the structure by thier ear - or as I have been scolded on line- you don't need to hear music, you need to feel it.
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