Gibson F-9 sinking top

[mockdc]

Anybody have trouble with a sinking top on a new Gibson F-9 mandolin? I bought a mint one a couple of years ago from Reverb. Had never been played. About a year later I noticed a center line split on the top. I took it to two reputable repairmen who both said that the top was sinking. I had a cleat put in to help with the split but the sinking top just seems to get deeper and deeper. Suggestions? Since I bought it from a second party, the Gibson warranty is not in play. Live and learn, I guess.

[BradKlein]

Gibson may still stand behind it. I'm not sure who's running repair or mandolin building there now. In fact, can anyone enlighten me?

[MikeEdgerton]

I believe Dave Harvey is still running those things but I'm not too sure Gibson will cover it either.

[dhergert]

My 2002 F-9 had something similar occur within a few months after I acquired it (2012)...

The center seam separated for a short distance, starting just after the end block under the tailpiece, going forward to about an inch below the bridge. The top was not sinking, in fact it appeared to be curving upward toward the bridge. There was no light showing through, but the edges of the top plate halves were showing. The mandolin had a history of one fall before I got it, plus it was moved from the owner's remote California high desert home to a grassland area where I live in southern California, so there was a climate/humidity change.

I took this mandolin to a prominent luthier/builder in my area who examined it carefully, and then squeezed some thinned Original Titebond between the edges of the plate halves and clamped it overnight just enough to close the separation. No cleat was applied.

This mandolin sees a lot of action, and I check it often; the seam has not moved since that repair 10 years ago.

@HoGo is the real expert here with having dissected, documented and rebuilt a later 200X'ish F-9. His Cafe' thread (here) describing this is a great read for any F-9 owner...

My conclusion after reading that great thread was that F-9 build qualities are probably typical for Gibson's less expensive mandolins, sans some fanciness, but they are clearly not the kind of quality builds that a respected custom builder would do. Not that I don't really enjoy my F-9, and I do consider mine a lifetime instrument for me, but it wasn't a meticulous 1-off custom build from a boutique builder.

Regarding a true sinking top, I'd recommend removing string tension and having it seen soon. It could be a number of things, and should be fixed before the top gets any worse.

[Aurora]

Unfortunately I do have experience in exactly this. I bought my 2015 Dave Harvey signed F-9 new from a shop with a great warranty so I had double.
After starting to develop issues. Noticed the culprit being the top carved 3mm at the bass side and 2mm at the treble side f-hole.
Gibson's stance after looking at it twice under warranty, was "humidity issues" , yep the one thing they wont cover! I was able to return mine under the shop warranty.
If you really love it you might get the value out of having it professionally retopped. I would try to keep it alive or the worlds out another mandolin.
Good Luck!

[mockdc]

Thanks, everyone for your responses. Mine is a Dave Harvey build from 2016. Any idea what a re-top would cost?

[sunburst]

...Any idea what a re-top would cost?

(Opinionated answer to follow

Too much, unless the company that built it covers it. I do have an idea what a re-top from an independent builder would ballpark, but at the end of the day, even with a well done new top you still have an F9, and IMO, it is not worth the work or the dollars. I think it's time to cut your losses and put the money not spent on repair toward a better mandolin.

[rcc56]

Yes, you would probably be upside down on re-topping the instrument. I don't re-top them, so my estimate is only a guess, but to have it done well, my very rough estimate might be somewhere in the $2000+ range, perhaps more. Folks like John who are set up to do the job would give you a more accurate estimate.

Bear in mind that to re-top an f style mandolin, at least part of the fingerboard must be removed, the fingerboard riser block must be replaced, the new top carved and installed, everything re-assembled, bindings installed, the new top finished, the bridge re-fitted, etc.

A lot of work-- more than a quarter of the work necessary to build a new instrument from scratch. And it would take a long time, even for an efficient worker with no backlog in his shop.

In a perfect world, a company might choose to honor a warranty or at least offer a discounted repair even to a non-original owner. But that way of doing business is pretty much a relic of the past. And these days it can be difficult to get warranty service from many manufacturers, even for an original owner with the original bill of sale.

Still, it wouldn't hurt to contact Dave Harvey-- he is a member here, and apparently a very nice fellow, but he might not be able to do much. Any warranty decisions or repair rates would have to be approved by the management.

There's a used Newson F-5 at Gruhn's [nfi]. He builds darn good mandolins. Also a Randy Wood mandolin and, for a more modest price, a good looking Capek. I agree with John-- you would be better off putting the money that you would use for a repair towards something like that instead.

[William Smith]

Call David, he's a good guy and friend, that top is too new just to be junk! He'll hopefully make it right for you!

[addamr]

Please let us know of the outcome.

Adam

[mockdc]

I really appreciate all the thoughts here, guys. Thank you. I did communicate with David Harvey around the time this first happened and he was very, very nice but since I did not buy from a dealer, he didn't have much help for me. The thing that is so frustrating is that I am a touring musician and the money that I spent on this was a lot for someone who doesn't make much. The reason I didn't buy from a dealer was because it was brand new (the warranty card wasn't even filled out) and it saved me some dollars (and as a working musician every dollar counts). Because it's not holding up, I can't sell it, and essentially I just threw away $3000 plus dollars on a "Gibson" instrument. To a working musician, that is a LOT of money. I just came back from a six state tour. Just to fill up the vehicle was $122.00. I won't go on and on. I'm just frustrated and annoyed and mad at myself. I won't make that mistake again. Thanks again for your input.

[mando_dan]

Ugh. I'm really sorry to hear that your f-9 is experiencing grief. Not cool, esp. reading that the F-9 gets a subpar build! How much do these cost?! Too much, no, way too much, for this to be happening. FYI, years ago when I bought a Washburn, it began to sink and after enough calls to Washburn they agreed to a replacement; I hope you have the same luck that I did.

Gibson- a company that's been riding it's good name for a long time now. < -- just my opinion.

Sorry again!

>>> Just read your last post and double foo on Gibson. That is bad bad PR.

[dhergert]

... essentially I just threw away $3000 plus dollars ...

... I would try to keep it alive or the worlds out another mandolin. ...

Honestly, if it were me, I'd strongly consider putting in at least one sound post before throwing the instrument away in total frustration.

Compromise, yes. But better than dumping.

For anyone interested, there are a number of threads here in the Cafe' that discuss sound posts in mandolins, mostly those with sunken tops.

[BradKlein]

At least get a price estimate from Gibson's repair shop / Dave Harvey before anything else. I'd certainly take that step before trying to have it retooled by another luthier, or shopping for a new instrument. I don't know what to expect from them, but that's where to start, no?

[jim simpson]

Sorry to hear of your loss, seemed like a good savings but was a gamble without the warranty. I suppose selling it as-is might only get you a third of what you spent. At least you could put that toward something else. Good luck!

[MikeEdgerton]

I'd like to see pictures. We are assuming it needs to be re-topped. Maybe not depending on what it actually looks like.

[Aurora]

Didn’t mean to diagnose your mandolin based on my previous instrument.
Would agree with Don about a sound post and had considered that with mine.
Post some pictures if you can please.

[Drew Egerton]

Would sure be a shame if they won't stand behind the product and at least offer a reasonably priced repair whether you bought it originally or not. Though they certainly don't appear to be worried about bad press as of late. It certainly doesn't make me rethink my lack of interest in the brand.

[Dave Hanson]

I bought my F9 second hand 7 years ago, never had a problem with it

[Timbofood]

This is a sad story to say the least. Yes that’s a bucket of money for a working musician especially in these “frustrating times”. I agree with Mike Edgerton, pictures would give the wise luthiers something more to base repair options on. Without seeing something it’s pretty difficult to make informed opinions. I’d think the thing that sent the warranty out the window was the cleat installation, that would make factory repair well out of consideration even had you been original owner. Don’t mean to rain on the parade but, when something goes sideways and an unauthorized repair is performed, original manufacturer has no further obligations for subsequent repairs.
Sad but, very common practice.
I hope you can get something sorted out so you can get back to work with a “sound” instrument.

[mockdc]

To everyone who had thoughts and suggestions, thank you! I love me some Mandolincafe! I did contact David Harvey and ask him about a re-top. His reply was that it was very complicated. However, he was helpful and very nice. Once again, I am not the original owner, so the warranty doesn't help. He did offer his time to talk about it and suggested someone I could get to help me. He made himself completely accessible to me. I want you to know that I did not post this in order to bad mouth Gibson or anybody else. I was just wondering if anyone else had the same problem and I was frustrated. I've been dealing with this for several years and I think I need to let it go. I had a good friend who was a mechanic and he would always say, "Just drive it." So that's what I'm gonna do. I'm gonna drive it until it won't drive anymore. I'm considering the sound post suggestion and others, but I think I need to move on. I apologize for the whining, and I appreciate all the feedback.

[sunburst]

[QUOTE=mockdc;1860516]...I'm considering the sound post suggestion and others, but I think I need to move on.../QUOTE]

I don't think you would be happy with the sound of the mandolin with sound post(s) in there. That is not how mandolins are meant to function. If you are playing plugged in you might be able to get away with it without too much detriment to sound.
I think the "just play it" approach has merit. Save some dollars until the mandolin is no longer useful (if that happens) and then replace it.

[rcc56]

As a fellow who has somehow managed to make a very modest living in various aspects of the music business for 30 years, I'll mention this:

I had an older [c. 2009] Eastman 505 go through here a couple of years back that was good enough to gig with. I sold it for $500 and now I wish that I had kept it.
While it wasn't a Gil or even a mid-level Collings, it was certainly serviceable enough and sounded quite good, and I wouldn't have cried much if it had gotten knocked over or stolen on a job. If your Gibson gives out on you, there are affordable alternatives.

Another is something like this: On most of my recent shows I played an old A-4 with a good modern fret job and a 1921 bridge with aluminum saddle that came from another mandolin. It mikes more easily than a lot of F hole mandolins, and with the aluminum saddle it is bright and percussive enough for bluegrass. An awful lot of records were made with those old Gibson A's. And decent plain A's can still be found for $1200, and good fret jobs for $300-$400. And there are a few of us who will make an aluminum saddle if someone wants one.

[Charles E.]

This could be an acceptable backup....

https://www.mandolincafe.com/ads/185139#185139

If you are set on an F model, the Eastman 615 is a good quality acoustic-electric mandolin...

https://www.mandolincafe.com/ads/185128#185128

NFI

[dhergert]

Just out of curiosity, how many people here have played a carved-top A or F style mandolin with a sound post in it? I know I have not.

If you have, how did the sound of the instrument without a sound post in it differ with the sound post installed?