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Thread: Early mandolin recordings / Correcting Wikipedia

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    Registered User Neil Gladd's Avatar
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    Default Early mandolin recordings / Correcting Wikipedia

    Greetings, Mandophiles! I haven't visited for a long time, but since I finally retired from my day job a few months ago (yay!), I have a little more free time, now.

    I have been collecting early mandolin recordings for more than 30 years, but was not allowed to do anything with them because of some individual state copyright laws. I won't go into the whole legal discussion, but the good news is that any sound recordings published in 1922 or earlier, finally went into the Public Domain on 1/1/2022. I do plan to reissue some of the commercially, but no one goes into the classical mandolin business for the money, and I do want to make them available, so what I have decided to do is put one recording by every soloist in my collection on YouTube. I have the first 6 up now, and plan to do a few more every week. So far I have posted videos of 4 American soloists (Valentine Abt, Zahr Myron Bickford, William Place, Jr, and Samuel Siegel) and 2 Italian soloists (Bernardo de Pace, and Salvator Léonardi.) The William Place recording is interesting, because it is the first recording by anyone of any music by Carlo Munier. The Bickford and Leonardi recordings are the rarest. Bickford only recorded on his own Zarvah Art label, and he is playing mandocello on the one record I have. It appears to be the only recording or Bickford performing, online. I didn't know that Salvator Léonardi had recorded at all until I found one of his records for sale, and it is on an obscure label, which is why I didn't know about it. It appears that he is playing a 4 stringed mandolin banjo!

    Here is a link to my channel, and you will find them among the most recent uploads:

    https://www.youtube.com/user/ngladd1/videos

    Having worked at the Library of Congress, I liked to tease my reference librarian friends with "Well WIKIPEDIA says..." As I look of some of the famous mandolinists there, there is SO much wrong information. Is it even worth correcting, since anyone can change it back?

    The article for Raffaele Calace says that he recorded 3 long playing records. No, he died before the invention of the LP, but did record on 78s. Perhaps they were confusing him with Giuseppe Pettine, who did record 3 LPs. (His article doesn't mention them.) The article about Leonardi doesn't mention his recordings, but it credits him as the COMPOSER of:

    Souvenir de Sicile[3]
    Souvenir de Naples[3]
    La bella sorrentina for mandolin with guitar or piano[3]
    Angeli e demoni for mandolin[3]
    Cavalleria rusticana
    Valse Fantastique
    Love Song Op. 275
    Danza Dei Nani Op. 43
    Caprice Italien (waltz)
    Caprice Spagnuolo Op. 276
    La Mystérieuse Valse (waltz)
    L'entrée des gladiateurs

    He did write a few of those, but not most of them. Argh! He did record Entry of the Gladiators on the banjo, so I wonder if whoever posted that knows that he recorded those other pieces? I have a few of his records, but none are of those pieces.

    Anyway, enjoy the recordings, and I will post more, soon!
    Last edited by Neil Gladd; Mar-14-2022 at 4:29pm. Reason: typo

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    Default Re: Early mandolin recordings / Correcting Wikipedia

    Quote Originally Posted by Neil Gladd View Post
    Having worked at the Library of Congress, I liked to tease my reference librarian friends with "Well WIKIPEDIA says..." As I look at some of the famous mandolinists there, there is SO much wrong information. Is it even worth correcting, since anyone can change it back?
    I can't speak to the musicological portion of your post, but perhaps my experience with wikipedia will be helpful.

    I update wikipedia fairly often. Usually, my corrections consist of little things - errors in spelling, grammar, punctuation, and such - but now and then I'll get into content. My overriding belief is that the wiki succeeds and suffers from GIGO - garbage in, garbage out - and the more positive input is provided, the better it will be. Often, when I'm reading an article, I'll see an obvious error or two, and edit it, so it's done. If something doesn't sound right, I may do a little research to see if I can determine the truth, and then correct the article to include that. Usually it doesn't take much time, and I believe it's better to fix something than complain about it being wrong. As the philosopher, Edmund Burke, never said, “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” (I had to do a quick check on that quote to find the author, and learned it's been misattributed for a long time, and no one seems to know definitively who said it. This is a good example of my process.)

    Now, it's true that someone can undo your changes. Usually, this is not done without good reason. Wikipedia is adamant about content being from published sources, so it is verifiable. Unfortunately, this does not include personal observations and recollections. For instance, when folksinger/satirist Patrick Sky died last year (a personal friend and mentor), I updated his bio to flesh out his life story. Some changes stuck; some didn't. I find it galling that some of these inclusions were removed, as I knew him, was even a business partner for a short while, but because there is no proof, they were removed. I understand their principles, and generally agree with them, but sometimes there should be allowances for extenuating circumstances.

    In the example you cite, I think you should be able to correct the facts without stirring up much trouble. There's a space at the bottom of the editing screen where you can give the reason(s) for your contribution, and a check box if you've made a minor correction. I'm unsure of the criteria for that estimation, but I'll guess that minor corrections get overlooked more often. Most of my corrections are, as I said. I suggest keeping your explanation brief, on point, and colorless. And I can't say it enough - it's important to get the story straight.

    So brush up on the rules, get involved, and make the world and the wiki better places. And whenever you can, cite your sources. And keep an eye on your contributions. You will be notified of changes to them. And you can always change them back - but don't start a ruckus.
    But that's just my opinion. I could be wrong. - Dennis Miller

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    Default Re: Early mandolin recordings / Correcting Wikipedia

    Tremendous, Neil! Thank you for the link. I look forward to enjoying these.

    Fair play to you on your retirement.
    Enjoy your newfound freedom. I envy you.

    Mick
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    Default Re: Early mandolin recordings / Correcting Wikipedia

    Thanks a ton, Neil for your YT channel. I look forward to listening to those treasures.

    Years ago I purchased 6 or 8 mandolin cylinders but had no machine to play them or any way to transfer them to digital format. So I donated the to the UCSB and they digitized them for me and they are still there for free download. I think most were Samuel Siegel.
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    Default Re: Early mandolin recordings / Correcting Wikipedia

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Garber View Post
    Thanks a ton, Neil for your YT channel. I look forward to listening to those treasures.

    Years ago I purchased 6 or 8 mandolin cylinders but had no machine to play them or any way to transfer them to digital format. So I donated the to the UCSB and they digitized them for me and they are still there for free download. I think most were Samuel Siegel.
    I remember that, Jim! I have a lot of the same cylinders, and have a machine that will play the Blue Amberol cylinders, but had to have phonograph phriends transfer the wax cylinders for me. I had just started collecting shortly before I worked in the record collection at the Library of Congress from 1991-1998. There is no price guide for mandolin 78s, so I based my auction bidding on the Library collection. If they had 10 copies, I knew it was a common record and put in a low bid. If no libraries had copies, I knew it was rare and bid higher. As a result I have a couple hundred recordings that are not in the Library of Congress, and I plan to eventually leave my collection to them.

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    Default Re: Early mandolin recordings / Correcting Wikipedia

    No journey bear wikipedia is not adamant about content being from published sources, so it is verifiable.

    In fact, from my experience the rule is published secondary sources. So new research is not acceptable (even if it comes from a peer reviewed journal).

    The second problem with the wikipedia is the referees: they act as opinionated dictators despite not having done the research themselves.

    I stay away from using it and I used to be a monetary contributor

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    Default Re: Early mandolin recordings / Correcting Wikipedia

    Well, that is the impression I've gotten at times. But I've had to guess pretty often, as explanations are not always forthcoming or detailed.

    And yes, some of the wiki wonks are pretty darned persnickety, even dictatorial. But without them, saboteurs would be running amok.

    I still say, with GIGO being the overriding problem, the better contributors contribute, the better it all will be. So tilt at windmills, take arms against a sea of troubles, fight the good fight. Faint heart never won fair lady. Or in this case, fine factoids.
    But that's just my opinion. I could be wrong. - Dennis Miller

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    Registered User Neil Gladd's Avatar
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    Default Re: Early mandolin recordings / Correcting Wikipedia

    The other question is, “How much of my retirement do I want to waste correcting the internet?” I did create a Wikipedia account to remove a composer friend from a list of mandolinists, as he had never played the mandolin, and I may make a few corrections, but I have music of my own to write, perform and publish. Many years ago, I had thoughts of becoming a part time used record dealer, and bought boxes of records that I never intended to keep. Now that I am retired, do I want to spend my time listing them on eBay and going to the post office? No!

    On a more positive note, I will post a few more early recordings this weekend!

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    Well ... the vast majority of my wikipedia corrections are done en passant. That is, if I'm reading an article and see something amiss, I'll correct it and move on with my reading. Just takes a minute or two, usually, but the improvement to the general information situation can be immense and everlasting. So worth it, IMO. But as always, YMMV. TETO.

    And FWIW, I think we've done this subject to a turn. The real subject is these recordings, which sound intriguing (so to speak). Enjoy your retirement! I sure am. Just auditioned for one band, might have gotten hired by two. So much for taking it easy!
    But that's just my opinion. I could be wrong. - Dennis Miller

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    Registered User Neil Gladd's Avatar
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    Default Re: Early mandolin recordings / Correcting Wikipedia

    Two new recordings are up. by Raffaele Calace, and his student Mario de Pietro!



    First, I have to apologize for the opening being cut off in the video. It is not something I did deliberately and it couldn't be helped, but there is nothing wrong with my record. The problem is the way that it was manufactured.There is a high rim on the outside edge of the record, immediately before the grooves start. It wouldn't be a problem if you were playing it on a Victrola with a steel needle, and I suppose the reason for the rim is to keep your needle from straying off the edge of the record. The problem is that my stylus cannot reach the grooves until the outside edge of my cartridge has cleared the rim. Very annoying!!! But, after the annoying start, you get to hear Calace playing one of his own compositions. This is the only one of his 1913 recordings that I have, and I have never even seen the original German pressings. This is a Russian pressing that I bought from an eBay dealer in Russia, and there is a different player on the other side. I have to say that I love the fact that Calace made this recording the same year that he made my newly-acquired Calace mandolin!

    It is both interesting and unfortunate that he never recorded any of his Preludes for solo mandolin, although he did record his IX Preludio for Liuto in Japan in 1926. Demetrious Dounis, (1893-1954) had recorded his Prelude, Op. 45 #1 in 1912, and Mario de Pietro,(1896-1945) recorded his Preludio II in 1926. Even though de Pietro was a student of Calace, his performance is SO eccentric, that I do not believe for a second that Calace would have played it that way or approved!



    Samuel Siegel was the most recorded mandolin soloist from 1900-1910, but Mario de Pietro was the most recorded during the 1920s and into the 1930s. He was a student of Raffaele Calace, and recorded a number of Calace's compositions that Calace had not recorded. He spent most of his career in England, and appeared of virtually every English label, often under pseudonyms. I do not have the recording dates for many of his recordings, but most are after the 1922 copyright cuttoff date. I have many of his recordings in my collection, but this is the only one that I know to be from before 1922, for a fact. No composer credit is given, and it is mostly a slow tremolo piece... after a virtuosic introduction! He recorded on both the mandolin and the banjo, and can be seen playing both in a number of Pathe film shorts.
    Last edited by Neil Gladd; Mar-19-2022 at 12:12pm.

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    Living music history! Thank you Neil, thank you 78rpm's, thank you public domain.
    What grabs me most abut these recordings is the continuous tremolo portamento, the legato glide up and down the neck, with no hint of fretted "breaks." I am trying to understand the different schools, periods, and regional cultures in mandolin world, the way I studied choral music as a grad student. Early 20th century recordings of Renaissance music with operatic vibrato and dramatic expression now seem ludicrous. But these mandolin players are within their own living milieu, with music of their times. I hear so much discussion about baroque style, probably because of the "Bach on the mandolin" craze. This is a whole different world.
    I would like thoughts on how this music and technique would compare with the so-called "Golden Age" of American mandolin orchestras, which I believe would be contemporaneous. I know that many people in this thread are much better informed than I, and I appreciate your scholarship.
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    Registered User Neil Gladd's Avatar
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    Default Re: Early mandolin recordings / Correcting Wikipedia

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Imhoff View Post
    Living music history! Thank you Neil, thank you 78rpm's, thank you public domain.
    What grabs me most abut these recordings is the continuous tremolo portamento, the legato glide up and down the neck, with no hint of fretted "breaks." I am trying to understand the different schools, periods, and regional cultures in mandolin world, the way I studied choral music as a grad student. But these mandolin players are within their own living milieu, with music of their times. I would like thoughts on how this music and technique would compare with the so-called "Golden Age" of American mandolin orchestras, which I believe would be contemporaneous. .
    I don't think of it so much as the "Golden Age of American mandolin orchestras," but simply the "Golden Age of the mandolin," period. These players ARE the golden age, the actual guys! I started collecting these recordings because I had read about the players and seen their music, but none of their recordings were available, so if you wanted to hear them, you needed to buy the original recordings. You can learn a lot from these, hearing both how well they played, but how they played, stylistically: with a really fast tremolo, and a lot of glissandos. Whenever possible, I try to post recordings of them playing their own compositions. Bach and Beethoven never made any recordings, but once you get to the 20th century, there is the possibility of hearing composers playing their own music, and that is always desirable to hear! I mentioned at the top of the thread just about posting mandolin soloists, but I will post some mandolin quartets and orchestras, as well. Just give me time, I'll do a few every week!

    BTW, right now there are a lot of really nice mandolin 78s on eBay, but I mostly have them all. I will mention that Mazur played by de Pietro is his best recording, and there are 2 copies for sale. Some of the dealers are crazy, though, describing common records as "rare," and overpricing them. Also, other people have been posting stuff like this. Just google "Samuel Siegel youtube" or any other soloist's name, and you will fid a few things.

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    I wanted to upload this recording of the Place Mandolin Quartette, as they were an important group, but unfortunately, they didn't record very well. This was their only record, and that is probably why. In the age of acoustic recordings, before the advent of microphones, it was important to be LOUD. Cornet solos and brass bands recorded better than mandolins. The most successful singers were not always the best voices, some just had a quality that recorded well. For recording a solo mandolin, the instrument would be immediately in front of the recording horn. Positioning 4 players around the horn was more difficult. This record was recorded at a low volume level, so I increased the volume more than once and added noise reduction, but there is still a pretty high noise level. Unfortunate, but this is what there is...

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    Default Re: Early mandolin recordings / Correcting Wikipedia

    Neil: Aside from Wm. Place, do you know who else played on this recording? I guess I am used to 78s. The sound doesn’t bother me. Just like listening to music while frying the morning bacon for breakfast. Speaking of which Place signed the label of my ‘21 Bacon Artist mandolin.

    BTW a thread related to this one would be the one taking about mandolin quartet recordings. Specifically linked here to Bob Margo’s excellent post: https://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/t...=1#post1771360
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    Default Re: Early mandolin recordings / Correcting Wikipedia

    I just posted this on facebook and asked Bob Margo about the players, since I didn't know. I had seen the other thread, and that's why I posted the video!

    Bob wrote: "William Place, Jr. mandolin #1; and Clinton S. King, mandolin #2, for sure. Some uncertainty about the mandocello and mandola players. A publicity photo for the quartet from around the date of the recording identifies Milburn Chapman as the mandola player and Lawrence V. Calder as the mandocellist. The Victor matrix information has Theodore Peck as the mandocellist (entirely possible) and Susan Moore as the mandola player (unknown to me)."

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    Default Re: Early mandolin recordings / Correcting Wikipedia

    I put up 4 more recordings, yesterday, 2 from Italy and 2 from Russia!



    Angelo Alfieri (1855-1925) was the most recorded Italian mandolin soloist in the early 20th century, recording discs for Gramophone from 1899-1902, and cylinders and discs for Pathe from 1905-1913. This recording of L'histoire d'un Pierrot, Serenata (Sylvestri) was released on Gramophone in 1902, and reissued on Zonophone.



    Guido Volpe made many recordings, but we are luck to have any of them, as most were cylinders and discs on the EXTREMELY rare Bettini label. I never expect to see any of them, Fortunately, and also made 5 recordings for Gramophone in 1902, and I have 3 of those! I have no dates and very little information about him, but according to the Bettini catalog,he was the mandolinist to the King of Sweden, and had successfully toured England, Sweden, Austria and the United States. His picture appears in the 6/1901 catalog with a Lyre-Mandolin.



    I have no information about this Russian mandolinist, but have found 2 of his recordings for sale, which were not in good condition. The other was from 1914, and this is probably from about the same time. He is accompanied by D. F. Peletsky on guitar. If anyone can identify the titles of the songs, please do!

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    Again, I have no information about this recording, except that I found it for sale. I collect primarily instrumental recordings, but a 111 year old Russian recording of a tenor with balalaika and mandolin, recorded pre-revolution, was not something I was likely to ever see again. And unlike the other Russian recording that I just posted, this one is in mint condition, as if it had never been played!

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    Default Re: Early mandolin recordings / Correcting Wikipedia

    Quote Originally Posted by Neil Gladd View Post


    I have no information about this Russian mandolinist, but have found 2 of his recordings for sale, which were not in good condition. The other was from 1914, and this is probably from about the same time. He is accompanied by D. F. Peletsky on guitar. If anyone can identify the titles of the songs, please do!
    Was this the other recording from Bestuzhev? https://www.popsike.com/78rpm-BESTUZ...955981307.html

    I love the artwork on these labels. The other side is a balalaikist.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Default Re: Early mandolin recordings / Correcting Wikipedia

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Garber View Post
    Was this the other recording from Bestuzhev? https://www.popsike.com/78rpm-BESTUZ...955981307.html

    I love the artwork on these labels. The other side is a balalaikist.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Bestuzhev2.jpg 
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ID:	200318
    Yes, I bought that one, too. Any Google searches just bring me back to the records I already bought!

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    Default Re: Early mandolin recordings / Correcting Wikipedia

    I got 4 more recordings up yesterday, including a couple for mandolin orchestra. This first one was recorded in Milano in 1918:



    Recorded in New York in 1919:



    This is the first recording by Europe's Society Orchestra, conducted by James Reese Europe (1881-1918), an important transitional figure from late ragtime to early jazz. It may not sound so mandocentric, but take my word for it that there are 5 mandolin banjos, 3 violins, clarinet, cornet, trap and drums, piano duo (2 people playing 1 piano).



    3 videos is the limit for one post, so I will post the last one separately.

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    Default Re: Early mandolin recordings / Correcting Wikipedia

    I own one cylinder from 1899, but this is the oldest disc in my collection. Signor Fantoni recorded 22 records for Berliner from 1899-1902, but this is one of only two that he recorded with mandolin and guitar.


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    I wouldn’t waste time working on Wikipedia. It’s a bit like Facebook, pretending to be something that it isn’t.
    I use it quite often but am constantly irritated by the errors and competing, referenced contributions that make no sense when placed in the same sentence!

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    Default Re: Early mandolin recordings / Correcting Wikipedia

    Hi, I put up 2 more recordings over the weekend. First, an Italian player living in New York:



    This recording is actually ragtime rather than classical, but my copy is in immaculate conditions, so it sounds great! Dr. Clarence John Penney (1877-after 1942), was a doctor of Dentistry, not music. He recorded 6 side for Victor in 1914, 3 of which were released. His accompanist, Felix Arndt (1889-1918) is much better known, as the composer of “Nola.” He appeared on many records as a pianist and/or composer.



    I have so many up now, that I think I'm going to add a special page to my website to keep them organized.

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    Default Re: Early mandolin recordings / Correcting Wikipedia

    I put up 3 nice ensemble recordings over the weekend. This first recording was made in New York in 1908, but the group may have been from Mexico or South America. One catalog referred to them as an "Orquestra De Mandolinas y Flautas."



    This is a French pressing of a Portuguese mandolin ensemble that was recorded Lisbon in 1913, and it is a Fantasia on a Spanish folk song. Is that international enough? I have another of their records that was released in the United States.



    This group made several records from 1915 – 1917, and they must have sold well, as some of them are pretty common in collector circles. They recorded for Victor as the Athenian Mandolin Quartet, and for Edison as the Alessios - De Filippis Mandolin Quartet. The personnel included Elias Alessios and Carlo De Filippis on mandolins, but I do not know the names of the other players. Their repertoire was pretty international, including Greek, Italian and Hawaiian music (with Hawaiian guitarists), and also one side with a vocal by proto country singer, Vernon Dalhart. De Filippis never made any 78s as a soloist, but in the 1960s, he would record Vivaldi with Leonard Bernstein.



    Enjoy!

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    Default Re: Early mandolin recordings / Correcting Wikipedia

    I hadn't posted any new recordings for a while, as I sort of went overboard when I first started, but I did put up a new one.

    Kurt Jackisch is one of the very few German mandolin soloists in my collection. He recorded 9 sides for Gramophone in Germany in 1911, but this Russian pressing is the only one that I have. I would have bought it, anyway, but I especially wanted it because Raffaele Calace was on the other side!



    This cylinder is not that old, but it may amuse you. :-)



    In other news, I have started work on putting out a CD of mandolin 78 reissues. I spent 4 hours in a recording studio on Tuesday and got most of the discs transferred. Just a few more transfers to make, then I have to decide how much to clean up the sound, and which ones to include. I'm looking at which recordings are available to use now of the ones I have, how many years I need to wait for other recordings to enter the Public Domain, and what recordings are already available online, somewhere. The first CD will be all early Italian soloists, and I'm aiming for the maximum time of 74 minutes, to include as much as possible.
    Last edited by Neil Gladd; May-07-2022 at 10:38am. Reason: typo

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