Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 27

Thread: This isn't right is it?

  1. #1
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Dec 2021
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    51

    Default This isn't right is it?

    The A and E strings at the first fret don't hold a 0.46mm (0.018") pick, and the strings are a mile off the board at the 7th and 12th frets.When I say a mile that's an exaggeration. I can fit a 1.2mm (0.0472"/just over 3/64ths) pick at the 7th fret and it's a few hairs off touching. At the 12th fret it's at least 1.66mm/0.0783".

    As for the bridge, I need to take the strings off and sand that don't I? The shop clearly did some set up but I feel like I need to do it all over for them.

    This is my first mando and it would be fun to get it perfect myself (I have the e-book from Mr. Meldrum) but I thought it best to get your opinions.

    I'm sorry for the orientation of the images, they get rotated for some reason.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	20220126_192238.jpg 
Views:	195 
Size:	318.3 KB 
ID:	199099Click image for larger version. 

Name:	20220126_192402.jpg 
Views:	192 
Size:	311.5 KB 
ID:	199100Click image for larger version. 

Name:	20220126_192510.jpg 
Views:	231 
Size:	407.5 KB 
ID:	199101Click image for larger version. 

Name:	20220126_192558.jpg 
Views:	186 
Size:	540.9 KB 
ID:	199102

  2. #2
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    S.W. Wisconsin
    Posts
    7,500

    Default Re: This isn't right is it?

    Yes refit the bridge. If you don't know how get Rob Meldrum's (mandolincafe.com/forum/threads/143935-Mandolin-setup-rob-meldrum) info right here on the cafe. I like the side to side method.

    You can lower the bridge the make the action better, I would check the truss rod adjustment first. Fret the G string at the first fret and 12th fret and look for the gap under the string at the 6th or 7th fret. It should be almost nothing or nothing for a mandolin.

    Now fret each string one at a time at the 3rd fret and look at the space above the first fret to the string. It should be almost nothing, I like the space at the first fret to be the same open ad it is on the second fret when the first fret is fretted. I like a low action.
    THE WORLD IS A BETTER PLACE JUST FOR YOUR SMILE!

  3. #3
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Dec 2021
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    51

    Default Re: This isn't right is it?

    Quote Originally Posted by pops1 View Post
    Yes refit the bridge. If you don't know how get Rob Meldrum's (mandolincafe.com/forum/threads/143935-Mandolin-setup-rob-meldrum) info right here on the cafe. I like the side to side method.

    You can lower the bridge the make the action better, I would check the truss rod adjustment first. Fret the G string at the first fret and 12th fret and look for the gap under the string at the 6th or 7th fret. It should be almost nothing or nothing for a mandolin.

    Now fret each string one at a time at the 3rd fret and look at the space above the first fret to the string. It should be almost nothing, I like the space at the first fret to be the same open ad it is on the second fret when the first fret is fretted. I like a low action.
    It's supposed to be a pain to fret at the 1st isn't it? My fingers can barely handle frets 1 to 3. I'll do all that except mess with the truss rod, the neck is flat to my eye and I don't want to mess that up. Thank you very much for all the other info!

  4. #4
    Moderator MikeEdgerton's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Howell, NJ
    Posts
    26,863

    Default Re: This isn't right is it?

    Quote Originally Posted by larten27 View Post
    It's supposed to be a pain to fret at the 1st isn't it?
    Nope.
    "It's comparable to playing a cheese slicer."
    --M. Stillion

    "Bargain instruments are no bargains if you can't play them"
    --J. Garber

  5. #5
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Dec 2021
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    51

    Default Re: This isn't right is it?

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeEdgerton View Post
    Nope.
    Probably just my squishy beginner fingertips not liking the strings

  6. #6

    Default Re: This isn't right is it?

    If you like the mando I would just have a Luthier refit the bridge, make a new nut and setup the action to how you like... frets look to be leveled down pretty far as well... you could have the fingerboard re leveled and fretted with new frets. this would make it play a lot more to your liking

  7. #7
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Dec 2021
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    51

    Default Re: This isn't right is it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rose #1 View Post
    If you like the mando I would just have a Luthier refit the bridge, make a new nut and setup the action to how you like... frets look to be leveled down pretty far as well... you could have the fingerboard re leveled and fretted with new frets. this would make it play a lot more to your liking
    I did think the frets looked pretty low. I don't mind fitting the bridge myself and maybe even filing the nut if needed, but I don't know how much easier that will make it on my fingers. For example the 3 starter chords G C and D are proper painful and I don't know how much of that is poor action vs un-calloused fingers on the thinner strings.

    At any rate it gives me practice on working on mandolins while I get used to playing it. (Currently watching lots of Jerry Rosa's videos because he's good at showing what to do, like this one https://youtu.be/cNl6jMfX2Rk)

  8. #8
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    S.W. Wisconsin
    Posts
    7,500

    Default Re: This isn't right is it?

    It's poor action, your fingers don't have callouses, but you should be able to play chords for a while before being painful. You could put lighter strings on and that will help too.
    THE WORLD IS A BETTER PLACE JUST FOR YOUR SMILE!

  9. #9
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Dec 2021
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    51

    Default Re: This isn't right is it?

    Quote Originally Posted by pops1 View Post
    It's poor action, your fingers don't have callouses, but you should be able to play chords for a while before being painful. You could put lighter strings on and that will help too.
    That's good to know thank you. I reckon I'll go ahead and set up according to Rob's book, I have some medium D'Addario Medium EJ74's arriving soon too but will buy a lighter set too if they don't work out. No idea what strings are on there honestly

  10. #10

    Default Re: This isn't right is it?

    From your prior posts it appears that this is a used instrument, so we can suppose that any change in the top with time has already happened, so getting the bridge to fit wouldn’t be wasted effort. However, the improvement in sound may be something for down the road a bit. The definition of ‘setup’ by the shop could cover a wide range, and you will be able to refine it yourself. It does look as if the nut has rotated and is not seated, which would raise the strings, and also influence the sound. Maybe see if it can gently be tapped down, or hold off on this until next string change. Messing with the nut slots is not beginner stuff.
    At your local auto parts store, buy a “feeler gauge set” (not an ignition point or sparkplug set, but one with blades from .001-.025”).
    If lowering the bridge doesn’t make everything wonderful, or there’s now buzzing or frets that don’t work right, the instrument really needs to be looked over by a luthier as a few other things could be needing attention.

  11. #11
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Dec 2021
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    51

    Default Re: This isn't right is it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard500 View Post
    From your prior posts it appears that this is a used instrument, so we can suppose that any change in the top with time has already happened, so getting the bridge to fit wouldn’t be wasted effort. However, the improvement in sound may be something for down the road a bit. The definition of ‘setup’ by the shop could cover a wide range, and you will be able to refine it yourself. It does look as if the nut has rotated and is not seated, which would raise the strings, and also influence the sound. Maybe see if it can gently be tapped down, or hold off on this until next string change. Messing with the nut slots is not beginner stuff.
    At your local auto parts store, buy a “feeler gauge set” (not an ignition point or sparkplug set, but one with blades from .001-.025”).
    If lowering the bridge doesn’t make everything wonderful, or there’s now buzzing or frets that don’t work right, the instrument really needs to be looked over by a luthier as a few other things could be needing attention.
    Wow I hadn't spot the nut having rotated, thank you. I assume it's meant to sit flush with the neck and the binding?

    I currently have a feeler gauge set with that exact range plus some diamond files in my amazon basket (convenience), following Rob's written advice I'll be adjusting the intonation and action from the bridge. I understand that if the nut slots wind up too deep you can place a piece of paper beneath the nut to raise it again, not that that's a permanent solution of course.

  12. #12
    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Westchester, NY
    Posts
    30,736

    Default Re: This isn't right is it?

    From the pictures it looks like the bridge is not making full contact on the top. Not sure why that would be unimportant for a used instrument. Yes, the nut is not seated. Set up even with Rob’s book to me for a complete newbie is better done by a pro at least this time around. The OP admits he is not even sure about how height the strings should be, plus other aspects of proper set up. Anyway, that is my 2 cents.
    Jim

    My Stream on Soundcloud
    Facebook
    19th Century Tunes
    Playing lately:
    1924 Gibson A4 - 2018 Campanella A-5 - 2007 Brentrup A4C - 1915 Frank Merwin Ashley violin - Huss & Dalton DS - 1923 Gibson A2 black snakehead - '83 Flatiron A5-2 - 1939 Gibson L-00 - 1936 Epiphone Deluxe - 1928 Gibson L-5 - ca. 1890s Fairbanks Senator Banjo - ca. 1923 Vega Style M tenor banjo - ca. 1920 Weymann Style 25 Mandolin-Banjo - National RM-1

  13. #13
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    High Peak - UK
    Posts
    4,167

    Default Re: This isn't right is it?

    The nut has been too high on almost every new instrument I’ve ever bought on the basis that it’s easier to lowerva nut than raise it.

    The quick way to check is to compare the distance between the strings and the first fret with that at the second fret with the stings fretted at the first. They should be roughly the same.

  14. #14
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Dec 2021
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    51

    Default Re: This isn't right is it?

    OP. Thank you everyone for your input, it is greatly appreciated. I just took it into the shop I bought it from, pointed out the things I found, and he didn't want to change a thing. Says he thinks the action is a good height and that the bridge and nut won't be affecting playability.

    Can't say I'm too impressed but it's not unplayable so I will persevere. I will likely sand the bridge and saddle to get the action lower at the 7th and 12th but I'll leave the nut, my worry is that as a factory instrument it will be glued in place.

  15. #15
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    S.W. Wisconsin
    Posts
    7,500

    Default Re: This isn't right is it?

    That shop doesn't know setup!! What is the string height above the 12th fret----12th fret to bottom of string? Some like 1/16" on both strings, I like 1/32" on the E and 3/64" or under on the G. This setup needs very level frets tho. If it is higher than 1/16" and if there is relief in the neck it's too high. By your pic's it is too high at the nut too. I wouldn't worry too much about the fit of the nut, it was most likely made that way. If it is not loose, I would leave it. I would lower the strings at the nut tho.
    THE WORLD IS A BETTER PLACE JUST FOR YOUR SMILE!

  16. #16
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Dec 2021
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    51

    Default Re: This isn't right is it?

    Quote Originally Posted by pops1 View Post
    That shop doesn't know setup!! What is the string height above the 12th fret----12th fret to bottom of string? Some like 1/16" on both strings, I like 1/32" on the E and 3/64" or under on the G. This setup needs very level frets tho. If it is higher than 1/16" and if there is relief in the neck it's too high. By your pic's it is too high at the nut too. I wouldn't worry too much about the fit of the nut, it was most likely made that way. If it is not loose, I would leave it. I would lower the strings at the nut tho.
    I'll be getting accurate measurements once I order a set of feeler gauges, I do also have some guitar luthier files on the way from ebay so I miiight be able to sort the nut too. At the very worst if I mess up I can get them to fit a new nut or just shim it and try again.

    I get why he wouldn't want to work on a factory instrument that he thinks has reached its peak but that's pretty shoddy customer service in my opinion. I asked for things to be done and was made to feel like an idiot for wanting my instrument to be as good as possible

  17. #17

    Default Re: This isn't right is it?

    Quote Originally Posted by larten27 View Post

    I get why he wouldn't want to work on a factory instrument that he thinks has reached its peak but that's pretty shoddy customer service in my opinion. I asked for things to be done and was made to feel like an idiot for wanting my instrument to be as good as possible
    This is obviously speculation, but if the store you bought your instrument from is a general purpose and/or guitar oriented store, it is likely that the luthier/setup guy there is used to working on guitars and has relatively little experience with mandolins. It's pretty important to have a person familiar with mandolins to work on your mandolins.

  18. #18
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Dec 2021
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    51

    Default Re: This isn't right is it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Man View Post
    This is obviously speculation, but if the store you bought your instrument from is a general purpose and/or guitar oriented store, it is likely that the luthier/setup guy there is used to working on guitars and has relatively little experience with mandolins. It's pretty important to have a person familiar with mandolins to work on your mandolins.
    That's what confused me honestly. They are a strings focused shop and carry most of the bowed and plucked instruments you could name, plus a hefty amount of pianos that I don't think get the attention they deserve. Small family business started by a mandolin player and his son, the man I dealt with, certainly knew his way around a mandolin. I have all of you agreeing with me on the one hand and on the other I have him saying it's fine.

  19. #19
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    S.W. Wisconsin
    Posts
    7,500

    Default Re: This isn't right is it?

    When I bought a mandolin years ago from a builder he called and asked how I liked it. I told him I lower the action by about half, he said "really I set it up extra low for you". Personal preference varies a lot and it may well be the action he likes, but not suited for a beginner, or not suited for you.
    THE WORLD IS A BETTER PLACE JUST FOR YOUR SMILE!

  20. #20
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    High Peak - UK
    Posts
    4,167

    Default Re: This isn't right is it?

    I’m no luthier but well experienced enough to know exactly what needs doing and exactly what to ask for. The bridge looks to be right down at its lowest point so, if the action is too high, surgery is the only option. Fortunately, properly fittiing the bridge will allow this and is likely to significantly improve the sound of the instrument. Drifting off the nut shouldn’t be a major job. It should be glued to the end of the fingerboard (just a small blob) and not the neck itself.

  21. #21
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Dec 2021
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    51

    Default Re: This isn't right is it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ray(T) View Post
    I’m no luthier but well experienced enough to know exactly what needs doing and exactly what to ask for. The bridge looks to be right down at its lowest point so, if the action is too high, surgery is the only option. Fortunately, properly fittiing the bridge will allow this and is likely to significantly improve the sound of the instrument. Drifting off the nut shouldn’t be a major job. It should be glued to the end of the fingerboard (just a small blob) and not the neck itself.
    Following the e-book I'd sand the feet of the bridge to mate it to the top and then sand the bottom of the saddle so that at its lowest point there's something like 0.05" at the 12th fret, seems like an easy enough job and I'm a reasonably handy person.

  22. #22

    Default Re: This isn't right is it?

    The nut is the worst thing about the whole setup. Even a fairly inexperienced guitar tech should be able to see that is not right. Getting it back in its proper place might improve the action and intonation quite a bit. Lowering the first fret action from .018 to .015 or .011 will make a huge difference in how it feels. This link covers nut slot filing and is a bit more detailed than Rob's book.

    http://http://www.lutherie.net/nuts.html

    The bridge fitting will improve the sound quite a lot as well as the action. You will be amazed at the difference.

  23. #23
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Dec 2021
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    51

    Default Re: This isn't right is it?

    Quote Originally Posted by larten27 View Post
    Following the e-book I'd sand the feet of the bridge to mate it to the top and then sand the bottom of the saddle so that at its lowest point there's something like 0.05" at the 12th fret, seems like an easy enough job and I'm a reasonably handy person.
    I'll correct past Me and say I'll be following the Frets.com guide for fitting the bridge with some other tips gathered from the many forum posts on the matter.

    http://www.frets.com/FretsPages/Luth...t/fitfeet.html

  24. #24
    Registered User John Bertotti's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    SD
    Posts
    3,658

    Default Re: This isn't right is it?

    Make sure it is humidified properly before you do any serious refitting work.
    My avatar is of my OldWave Oval A

    Creativity is just doing something wierd and finding out others like it.

  25. #25

    Default Re: This isn't right is it?

    Quote Originally Posted by larten27 View Post
    The A and E strings at the first fret don't hold a 0.46mm (0.018") pick, and the strings are a mile off the board at the 7th and 12th frets.When I say a mile that's an exaggeration. I can fit a 1.2mm (0.0472"/just over 3/64ths) pick at the 7th fret and it's a few hairs off touching. At the 12th fret it's at least 1.66mm/0.0783".

    As for the bridge, I need to take the strings off and sand that don't I? The shop clearly did some set up but I feel like I need to do it all over for them.

    This is my first mando and it would be fun to get it perfect myself (I have the e-book from Mr. Meldrum) but I thought it best to get your opinions.

    I'm sorry for the orientation of the images, they get rotated for some reason.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	20220126_192238.jpg 
Views:	195 
Size:	318.3 KB 
ID:	199099Click image for larger version. 

Name:	20220126_192402.jpg 
Views:	192 
Size:	311.5 KB 
ID:	199100Click image for larger version. 

Name:	20220126_192510.jpg 
Views:	231 
Size:	407.5 KB 
ID:	199101Click image for larger version. 

Name:	20220126_192558.jpg 
Views:	186 
Size:	540.9 KB 
ID:	199102
    For reference: 0.060-0.070" clearance at the twelfth fret for the E string is good action if everything else is where it belongs. You can get it lower but sound becomes pinched and you lose volume IME.

    The nut slots are critical and hardest to get right. First fret E string should ideally be closer to 0.006". With doubled courses at high tension, high nut slots are crippling. take it to someone who is well versed in mandolin set up.

    The bridge is not seated properly. It is something you can do with time and patience.

Bookmarks

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •