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Thread: Major scales? why different ways?

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    Default Major scales? why different ways?

    Im new to this forum also just got my new mandolin few days ago a total beginner. I really liked that the instrument can be a very good for solo and rhythm or both as well. I mostly played flutes,fifes,recorders and my last string instrument I have casually played a guitar was 10 years ago. I started right away to learn the major scales and download some images of C scale of mandolin from internet and been practicing for many days only to find out that my C scale strings and fingerings was kinda cumbersome and spread which would reach 10th or 12 strings something.
    I then download again a C major scale from internet but this time the fingering were very tight what I mean was more accessible if I tried to play fast melodic passages. I noticed there are many ways to do a simple c major scales and many fingering options which makes me confused not like flute where fingering is fixed. What major scales strings and fingerings is standard? do they have one? which can be used for playing classical pieces thank you for the help in advance.

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    Orrig Onion HonketyHank's Avatar
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    Default Re: Major scales? why different ways?

    I, and many others, started our mandolin madness using notes selected from the first 6 or 7 frets plus open strings. This is generally called "open position". With those fingerings, you can make any scale. More advanced players will use fingerings farther up the neck when they find it necessary or convenient. I still primarily use open position, but have been known to go up the neck every once in a while. I know the lower frets. I have to figure out the higher frets. So I have some work to do.

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  4. #3

    Default Re: Major scales? why different ways?

    A good way to sort out the fret board is ffcp (four finger closed position) scales. There are four patterns which make up these scales. All major and minor scales can be derived from these patterns. Even the open string scales actually fall into these patterns with open strings covering some of the positions. The patterns are a lot more logical and regular than guitar due to the fifths tuning. The links below from Jazzmando.com and here on the Cafe cover them.

    http://https://jazzmando.com/ffcp.shtml

    http://https://www.mandolincafe.com/...schliman1.html

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    Registered User Glassweb's Avatar
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    Default Re: Major scales? why different ways?

    Another important reason to play scales up the neck is for the sound... the same notes played on different parts of the fingerboard will afford you a much more interesting tonal palette...

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    Default Re: Major scales? why different ways?

    Quote Originally Posted by Davematthews View Post
    Im new to this forum also just got my new mandolin few days ago a total beginner. I really liked that the instrument can be a very good for solo and rhythm or both as well. I mostly played flutes,fifes,recorders and my last string instrument I have casually played a guitar was 10 years ago. I started right away to learn the major scales and download some images of C scale of mandolin from internet ...
    Seems like a curious way to begin to learn a new musical instrument. I'd recommend buying and working slowly through a mandolin instruction book, where you'll learn the notes (not images) step by step, and get basic exercises for picking. "Fast melodic passages" come later.

    As for your question about multiple options for fingering scales, this results from the fact that every string instrument has all the notes and all the scales on every string. So a mandolin is like four flutes lying side by side. We play long scales normally by combining scale fragments from each string. So the number of possible routes through a given scale is quite large. Hope this helps.

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    small instrument, big fun Dan in NH's Avatar
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    Default Re: Major scales? why different ways?

    Serious question, Dave - Can you read music?

    If the answer is "yes" then google "The Bickford Method pdf." It's available for free all over the internet. It will give you a solid foundation to build from.

    There's also The Complete Mandolinist vols I&II. But you have to pay money for those.

    If you CAN'T read music don't worry, there's still plenty of good resources out there.
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    Default Re: Major scales? why different ways?

    While we're on books, I'll throw in a shout out for Tristan Scroggins' How to Play Mandolin in 14 Days: Daily Lessons for Absolute Beginners.
    Useful for more than just absolute beginners, and a concise coverage of many topics

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    Default Re: Major scales? why different ways?

    It never hurts to get a little formal instruction in the beginning, if only Youtube videos from fellows like Mike Marshall, Chris Thile, Don Julio or Pete Martin. Fixing bad habits always takes longer than learning good ones from the beginning.
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    Default Re: Major scales? why different ways?

    A few thoughts

    First - you can play any scale in a number of ways - for example, you can play them on 1 string, 2 strings, 3 strings, or all 4 strings - you can also play 1 octave, 2 octaves, sometimes 3 or 4 (depending on the scale and how many frets your mandolin has). And once you get the major scales down, there's the minors, the arpeggios, the pentatonic and etc. Start off small - one octave in the open position. Then move up to 2 octaves. Then worry about the more complex stuff.

    Second - it's good to know that certain keys will FORCE you to shift at some point (for example, to play a 2 octave C major scale, you MUST shift positions at least once) whereas others can be completely in the same position (like G or A for example). Choosing a key like C to start with may not be the best. For that matter, depending on the style of music you're listening to, the key of C may / may not be common. In Bluegrass, it's not as common as G, A, or D major IMO. Focusing on those keys could be better to start

    Third - Learning the scales out of the context of a song can be a little difficult. When you have a song in mind, you can typically use the major scale notes to pluck out the melody since many songs in the bluegrass cannon (and pop, rock etc) have melodies that fall entirely or nearly entirely on the scale. Songs like Will the Circle Be Unbroken, Old Joe Clark, Whiskey Before Breakfast, and many others are good examples (a lot of early Beatles are like that too). Here's a few Song Breakdowns that could help https://mattcbruno.com/song-breakdowns/

    Fourth - I'd strongly recommend writing out the scale on a fretboard map. Check out my site here for some ideas there https://mattcbruno.com/fretboard-maps/

    Also, I have a page that shows all the major scales for all the keys in a few positions. Feel free to download the exercises if they help https://mattcbruno.com/scale-studies/
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    Default Re: Major scales? why different ways?

    Quote Originally Posted by Davematthews View Post
    I noticed there are many ways to do a simple c major scales and many fingering options which makes me confused not like flute where fingering is fixed. What major scales strings and fingerings is standard? do they have one? which can be used for playing classical pieces thank you for the help in advance.
    Yes!

    It is the first thing I noticed when I "transitioned" from woodwind to mandolin. My conclusions were that woodwinds are built around a major scale, because one scale is usually and by far the easiest to play, requiring only simple finger placement, covering the holes more or less, and few or none of the myriad of extra keys. And another thing - this main major scale the instrument seems to be built around is called C. If the instrument is a standard orchestral clarinet, the actual tones of that scale will be Bb major scale. Thus a clarinet is "in the key of Bb". If the instrument is an alto saxophone, the actual tones of the scale called C will be an Eb major scale. Thus, the instrument is "in Eb". For a regular orchestral flute, the C major scale is the C scale, so a flute is "in C".

    Stringed instruments are seemingly revolutionary (when coming from the woodwind world), for a bunch of reasons but this one in particular, that they are not "built" around a particular scale. Just strings and frets. Not only are there many ways to play every scale, but also most every scale pattern one learns will produce a different scale if moved up a string or up a fret. Thus one is quickly able to play a major scale in every key by starting the same pattern on a different note. Mind blown.

    And this second leads to another mind blowing - unlike a piano, a stringed instrument has no black keys. Sharps and flats are not exceptions to an easy scale. Scales are just intervals and there is nothing special about any particular scale. Nothing special about the C scale. After full immersion in mandolin many find it much easier to play in G or D than to play in C. Especially when playing by ear.


    Ok, on to your question. I would suggest the simultaneous application of two points of view.

    I would get a beginner violin book to see how scales are done in so called "first position" and then on to "third position", in order to get a handle on things, and get up the neck. I would use that as a way to read standard notation for example.

    Then in parallel i would look into the FFcP which is described in the book "Getting into Jazz Mandolin" by Ted Eschliman. It is an entirely different way of looking at getting up the neck. This is gigantic for playing by ear, getting a new tune under your fingers quickly, jamming with others.

    And to the extent possible, i would follow both these paths as far as you have energy and interest. Both.

    Everything, (I think) branches off these two approaches, these two ways of visualizing the fretboard, and just about any style of music you pursue on the mandolin.

    My prejudice is that it takes a background in woodwinds to understand how amazing a mandolin really is.
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    Default Re: Major scales? why different ways?

    That’s an insightful post on the differences between those instruments, and on the strengths of string instruments, especially mandolin family instruments.
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    Default Re: Major scales? why different ways?

    Quote Originally Posted by JeffD View Post
    My conclusions were that woodwinds are built around a major scale, because one scale is usually and by far the easiest to play, requiring only simple finger placement, covering the holes more or less, and few or none of the myriad of extra keys. And another thing - this main major scale the instrument seems to be built around is called C.
    Well put, great post!

    That's the case, woodwinds do have a basic home scale, unlike string instruments.

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    Default Re: Major scales? why different ways?

    Quote Originally Posted by JeffD View Post
    Yes!

    It is the first thing I noticed when I "transitioned" from woodwind to mandolin. My conclusions were that woodwinds are built around a major scale, because one scale is usually and by far the easiest to play, requiring only simple finger placement, covering the holes more or less, and few or none of the myriad of extra keys. And another thing - this main major scale the instrument seems to be built around is called C. If the instrument is a standard orchestral clarinet, the actual tones of that scale will be Bb major scale. Thus a clarinet is "in the key of Bb". If the instrument is an alto saxophone, the actual tones of the scale called C will be an Eb major scale. Thus, the instrument is "in Eb". For a regular orchestral flute, the C major scale is the C scale, so a flute is "in C".

    Stringed instruments are seemingly revolutionary (when coming from the woodwind world), for a bunch of reasons but this one in particular, that they are not "built" around a particular scale. Just strings and frets. Not only are there many ways to play every scale, but also most every scale pattern one learns will produce a different scale if moved up a string or up a fret. Thus one is quickly able to play a major scale in every key by starting the same pattern on a different note. Mind blown.

    And this second leads to another mind blowing - unlike a piano, a stringed instrument has no black keys. Sharps and flats are not exceptions to an easy scale. Scales are just intervals and there is nothing special about any particular scale. Nothing special about the C scale. After full immersion in mandolin many find it much easier to play in G or D than to play in C. Especially when playing by ear.


    Ok, on to your question. I would suggest the simultaneous application of two points of view.

    I would get a beginner violin book to see how scales are done in so called "first position" and then on to "third position", in order to get a handle on things, and get up the neck. I would use that as a way to read standard notation for example.

    Then in parallel i would look into the FFcP which is described in the book "Getting into Jazz Mandolin" by Ted Eschliman. It is an entirely different way of looking at getting up the neck. This is gigantic for playing by ear, getting a new tune under your fingers quickly, jamming with others.

    And to the extent possible, i would follow both these paths as far as you have energy and interest. Both.

    Everything, (I think) branches off these two approaches, these two ways of visualizing the fretboard, and just about any style of music you pursue on the mandolin.

    My prejudice is that it takes a background in woodwinds to understand how amazing a mandolin really is.
    or Brass :D
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    Default Re: Major scales? why different ways?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Stueve View Post
    or Brass :D
    The thing is, brass instruments work differently than woodwinds in that the keywork on woodwinds opens and closes the tube of the air stream in a linear fashion, but with brass the valves add length to the air stream to lower a pitch.

    Plus, the keywork on woodwinds makes the notes possible; on brass, probable.

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    Default Re: Major scales? why different ways?

    Thank you very much for all the replies and links about mandoline it was really helpfull, I was surprised to see so many people playing the mandoline and now including me : ) .
    @JeffD:
    It is the first thing I noticed when I "transitioned" from woodwind to mandolin. My conclusions were that woodwinds are built around a major scale, because one scale is usually and by far the easiest to play, requiring only simple finger placement, covering the holes more or less, and few or none of the myriad of extra keys. And another thing - this main major scale the instrument seems to be built around is called C. If the instrument is a standard orchestral clarinet, the actual tones of that scale will be Bb major scale. Thus a clarinet is "in the key of Bb". If the instrument is an alto saxophone, the actual tones of the scale called C will be an Eb major scale. Thus, the instrument is "in Eb". For a regular orchestral flute, the C major scale is the C scale, so a flute is "in C".

    Stringed instruments are seemingly revolutionary (when coming from the woodwind world), for a bunch of reasons but this one in particular, that they are not "built" around a particular scale. Just strings and frets. Not only are there many ways to play every scale, but also most every scale pattern one learns will produce a different scale if moved up a string or up a fret. Thus one is quickly able to play a major scale in every key by starting the same pattern on a different note. Mind blown.

    And this second leads to another mind blowing - unlike a piano, a stringed instrument has no black keys. Sharps and flats are not exceptions to an easy scale. Scales are just intervals and there is nothing special about any particular scale. Nothing special about the C scale. After full immersion in mandolin many find it much easier to play in G or D than to play in C. Especially when playing by ear.


    Ok, on to your question. I would suggest the simultaneous application of two points of view.

    I would get a beginner violin book to see how scales are done in so called "first position" and then on to "third position", in order to get a handle on things, and get up the neck. I would use that as a way to read standard notation for example.

    Then in parallel i would look into the FFcP which is described in the book "Getting into Jazz Mandolin" by Ted Eschliman. It is an entirely different way of looking at getting up the neck. This is gigantic for playing by ear, getting a new tune under your fingers quickly, jamming with others.

    And to the extent possible, i would follow both these paths as far as you have energy and interest. Both.

    Everything, (I think) branches off these two approaches, these two ways of visualizing the fretboard, and just about any style of music you pursue on the mandolin.

    My prejudice is that it takes a background in woodwinds to understand how amazing a mandolin really is.
    Finally someone I can relate with coming from woodwinds background, it was silly for me to think that mandolin has the same key of C as that of a flute or recorder but its very different because it a string instrument its like comparing apples to an orange.

    I happen to have a book about violin, dont have a violin but I learning something new and used it to learn Irish fiddle for my flutes. This book "Learn to Play Irish Fiddle" by Phillip Berthoud comes with 2 cd's and was helpfull for referencing. Im planning to get a book for mandoline in the future but right now I can see the resemblance of a violin to a mandolin as some guys have pointed out, I see the strokes pattern on the violin was this applicable to the mandoline too? attached are images with my first ever mandoline a Denver brand.


    Click image for larger version. 

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    TKTK T K - sound pattern I make with recorder from the first tunes

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    Innocent Bystander JeffD's Avatar
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    Default Re: Major scales? why different ways?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Stueve View Post
    or Brass :D
    Brass is a whole 'nother universe. I have never even tried to figure it out. It strikes me as amazing that you can have all the pentatonic intervals on one fingering. Its like playing 12 bugles. Someday I will talk to a trumpet player over a bourbon or two get it sorted in my head.

    I would dearly love to play the double belled euphonium. Those days that a lower brass instrument shows up at a pick up band the music is wonderful.
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    Innocent Bystander JeffD's Avatar
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    Default Re: Major scales? why different ways?

    Davemathews another thought for you.

    Coming from a woodwind background I learned a prejudice. Single note melody. I learned that my job was to play the melody, and chords and harmony were "someone else's job" So for years I did that on the mandolin. While folks who came from guitar, many of them, saw melody on a stringed instrument as an interesting challenge, but their primary "job" was support of the melody, with chords and rythm. Which prejudice moved to their mandolinning.

    In my case I had to really learn that I had a lot of strings on that instrument and I could play more notes simultaneously than I was. I had to learn that the mandolin is the whole orchestra, and my responsibilities to the music are larger than single note melody. Heck, the fiddle has that covered. I had to learn chords, and how to back other instruments, and really, how to back myself - with double stops and chords.

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    Innocent Bystander JeffD's Avatar
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    Default Re: Major scales? why different ways?

    Quote Originally Posted by Davematthews View Post
    I see the strokes pattern on the violin was this applicable to the mandoline too?
    After talking with many people about this, I think the violin bowing directions are a very useful starting place. Much more in classical music than elsewhere.

    For folkie and traditional types of music, the regular thing to do is learn the appropriate pattern, whether it is D U D U D U D U (good for reels and the like) or D DU D DU D DU (which I like for jigs). Pick direction is its own separate topic and there are many smarter than me.
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    Default Re: Major scales? why different ways?

    Quote Originally Posted by Davematthews View Post

    Finally someone I can relate with coming from woodwinds background, it was silly for me to think that mandolin has the same key of C as that of a flute or recorder but its very different because it a string instrument its like comparing apples to an orange.
    )
    Yes the fingering is a different thing in strings and winds.

    But -

    The mandolin and the flute and recorder ARE C instruments, in that when you finger the note on your instrument called "C" it plays a concert pitch same-as-on-the-piano C.

    Bb instruments like trumpet, clarinet, tenor and soprano sax, etc., play a concert Bb when one fingers a written C.

    The Eb alto sax plays , yup, you guessed it, an Eb.

    So from an orchestrator's POV, flute, recorder, oboe, violin, viola, cello, tenor banjo, guitar and bass (but sounding and octave lower), and our mandolins are C instruments.

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    Default Re: Major scales? why different ways?

    Quote Originally Posted by JeffD View Post
    Brass is a whole 'nother universe. I have never even tried to figure it out. It strikes me as amazing that you can have all the pentatonic intervals on one fingering. Its like playing 12 bugles. Someday I will talk to a trumpet player over a bourbon or two get it sorted in my head.

    I would dearly love to play the double belled euphonium. Those days that a lower brass instrument shows up at a pick up band the music is wonderful.
    There are seven different valve positions, so it is like having seven bugles. You don't need 12 because the partials you are using start overlapping as you go higher. In the upper registers of a brass instrument, you only need three or four valve positions.

    The double-bell euphonium is an interesting instrument. The two bells change the timbre, not the pitch. The large bell sounds like a euphonium, the smaller bell sounds like a trombone.

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    Innocent Bystander JeffD's Avatar
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    Default Re: Major scales? why different ways?

    Quote Originally Posted by David L View Post
    The double-bell euphonium is an interesting instrument. The two bells change the timbre, not the pitch. The large bell sounds like a euphonium, the smaller bell sounds like a trombone.
    And it looks so cool!!!
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    Default Re: Major scales? why different ways?

    ‘…why different ways?’

    -even major scales can shift modes which affects effective finger positions.
    Easier to play in one position rather than another.

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    Default Re: Major scales? why different ways?

    Tim Connell chiming in here - as a professional music educator who cares about your success, here's my advice for anyone who wants to keep improving:

    please learn your scales in first position with EVERY NOTE of the scale available to you in first position. That is, don't learn C major scale from low C to high C and back and then call it good. There are C major scale notes BELOW the low C and there are more C major scale notes ABOVE the high C. All in first position, using any open strings available.

    this way, you keep learning the same four letter notes on each string for every single scale!!

    here's an example of how I teach C major scale to my students:
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Four-finger patterns are a gift to be sure, but if you haven't really learned the notes of the scale yet, you probably never will with 4-finger patterns - they're simply to easy to play without knowing the notes.
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