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Thread: Moveable chords

  1. #1
    Registered User John Bertotti's Avatar
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    Default Moveable chords

    I decided to learn the four string moveable chords. Well working on just the A my wrist is sore and my fingers feel twisted up. I am hoping it is a matter of taking it slowly and building the strength to accurately pull theses chords off. I am not doing well with them at all but it is the first morning I have given it a shot. I just started at the top of this webpage. Shape 1 and 2. They seem harder to me than a G and C chop chord.
    My avatar is of my OldWave Oval A

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    Professional Dreamer journeybear's Avatar
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    Default Re: Moveable chords

    My general rule of thumb is: find alternate chords. There are several fingerings for every chord on the fingerboard; there must be one or two that are easier to play.

    I'm not sure what you mean by "I just started at the top of this webpage. Shape 1 and 2," so I'm giving general advice. I hope it helps. For A, I use 2245 more than any other pattern. Also, there's 6779. If you are OK with open strings, there are 2200 and 6200.

    Also, a lot of times you can get by with double-stops - chord fragments containing just two notes. There are a couple of them that I find are very useful: eight half-tone and five half-tone. That's up a string and up a fret, and up a string and down two frets. You'll see both of these in the G chop chord 7523. These are actually inversions of the major third and fifth intervals, with the root played as the higher tone.
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  4. #3
    Registered User John Bertotti's Avatar
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    Default Re: Moveable chords

    Sorry. I have just played mostly melody and a few chords but now want to learn some so I was on this website. https://simplymandolin.com/moveable-mandolin-chords/
    scrolling down I was messing with shape 1 and 2 and both were hard on my left hand. I found my hand moving to a more guitar like grip similar to doing bar chords on a guitar.
    My avatar is of my OldWave Oval A

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    Default Re: Moveable chords

    There's been a similar resource for this on the Cafe for over 20 years, though the focus of this one was a tad beyond major/minor and targeted for jazz. Created by the late Pat McClintock.

    Pat McClintock's Jazz Chords

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    Default Re: Moveable chords

    OK, now I see what's going on. And I was at least in the general area. Well, I guess it makes sense that the first chord I mentioned is also their Shape 1. And yes, it is a barre chord, so if your hand adjusts in that direction, it's only natural. I'm not sure why it should be hard, though. It feels natural to me. But everyone is different, of course, and everything new needs getting used to.

    As to Shape 2 - I would never play this. Ever. Except for the open D, which is that pattern moved down two frets to 2002. I play that open D chord all the time; it's one of my favorites. But fretted? Nope - too difficult. But this is the second shape I mentioned, pretty much, which as an E chord is 1224. That's playing the III tone instead of the V tone on the G string. I use this for E all the time. It's powerful. And as a barre chord, it's easy to move up the neck.

    Looking ahead to their Shape 3 - I would slide this two frets down and call this the "C-style" shape. I use this shape a lot for C: 5230. I also play C 0233, and use this shape as a barre chord, often for D and E.

    Their shape 4 G chord should be recognizable as a simplified version of the G chop chord 7523. That 23 portion appears again in the open form, 0023, which is the same shape as the 2245 A, just slid down two frets. And it's the same as that 5230 C chord moved "up a string."

    It all works together, somehow.
    Last edited by journeybear; Jan-23-2022 at 11:25am. Reason: thought of something else
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  10. #6
    Registered User John Bertotti's Avatar
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    Default Re: Moveable chords

    I just want to comfortably play shapes and transition between position and shape. That is my goal and currently it is a long way off.
    My avatar is of my OldWave Oval A

    Creativity is just doing something wierd and finding out others like it.

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    The Amateur Mandolinist Mark Gunter's Avatar
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    Default Re: Moveable chords

    IMO the “shape 2” is indeed important for me, it puts the fifth in the base. For the OP: it’s not unusual for anyone learning to master chords on any stringed instrument to be pretty uncomfortable in their wrist, hand, arm and fingers when starting. Just practice steadily over the weeks. Don’t overdo it, to avoid injury to your tendons. Stay as relaxed as possible. You need to give yourself time to train your body to accomplish the contortion required.
    Last edited by Mark Gunter; Jan-23-2022 at 12:41pm.
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  13. #8
    Registered User John Bertotti's Avatar
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    Default Re: Moveable chords

    I have always had issues with bar chords in guitar as well. Not the contrition but my hand size and finger size seems to always put a flex point of a joint over a string and it doesn’t fret well generally just gets muted.
    My avatar is of my OldWave Oval A

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  14. #9
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    Default Re: Moveable chords

    Quote Originally Posted by John Bertotti View Post
    I have always had issues with bar chords in guitar as well. Not the contrition but my hand size and finger size seems to always put a flex point of a joint over a string and it doesn’t fret well generally just gets muted.
    I understand, John, and what struck me in your post was “first morning” and “I am hoping” …

    Nobody plays chords & rhythm on a stringed instrument naturally from day one. Nobody. Many people on this forum, myself included, have been playing over 50 years (guitar), and still, when learning new chord shapes whether on mandolin or guitar it takes weeks of practice if not longer to master the new things and make them seem second nature … so be encouraged. You’re not alone, kudos for practicing chords!
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  16. #10
    harvester of clams Bill McCall's Avatar
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    Default Re: Moveable chords

    Four note chords are pretty unnecessary. I believe Jethro advocated for triads almost exclusively.

    Learn the 223 shape, ie root in the bass, 233, third in the bass and 245, fifth in the bass. Or you can think:root on G string, root on D string and root on A string. Those are A, F and D. To change chords, you find the easiest root to grab. You can drop the 3rd for minors and raise the fifth for dom7. Learn them on the upper 3 strings and the lower 3 strings. Even diminished chords can be played on 3 strings. Obviously you’ll need to identify the note names. Keep track of the chord root for identification.

    You’ll go a long way with that under your belt. A good exercise is to choose a key and play 4-7-3-6-2-5-1, harmonized. Depends on where you want to go.
    Last edited by Bill McCall; Jan-23-2022 at 1:26pm. Reason: Add clarity.
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  18. #11
    The Amateur Mandolinist Mark Gunter's Avatar
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    Default Re: Moveable chords

    Also, to clarify as re: journeybear’s post about shape 2. Most players easily play the E5 at 4-2-2-0 using two fingers. Playing 4-2-2-4 is NO MORE DIFFICULT for me and makes that shape MOVABLE.

    The variation journeybear mentions, where the third is in the bass, is used more often in my playing, but putting the fifth in is no more difficult and it often is the best choice musically. Don’t sell yourself short, learn as much as you can.
    Last edited by Mark Gunter; Jan-23-2022 at 12:43pm.
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    Default Re: Moveable chords

    And continuing what Bill (and of course, the late great Jethro Burns) is advocating, you don’t have to play all strings or all notes all the time! In fact, mostly, you won’t! But that doesn’t mean you shouldn’t learn and practice to cleanly play four note chords for when you do want them. Again, don’t sell yourself short.
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    Registered User John Bertotti's Avatar
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    Default Re: Moveable chords

    Oh yea been around here awhile so that might be confusing. I have played chords but this is the first morning I have given it any serious practice other than a chord here and there when needed and those usually were not four closed chords. And I’m hoping as with anything as flexibility muscle memory and strength in this improves it will be easier.
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    Default Re: Moveable chords

    It will. And best way to get fluid with chords is by actually comping to music you enjoy. Learning by playing them in context.
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  23. #15
    harvester of clams Bill McCall's Avatar
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    Default Re: Moveable chords

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Gunter View Post
    It will. And best way to get fluid with chords is by actually comping to music you enjoy. Learning by playing them in context.
    This is important. As I went a round the circle of fifths with the exercise I described above, it didn't really prepare me for comping in tunes with rapid chord changes. Its more useful to play tunes with different chord inversions and in different keys.
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    Default Re: Moveable chords

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Gunter View Post
    Also, to clarify as re: journeybear’s post about shape 2. Most players easily play the E5 at 4-2-2-0 using two fingers. Playing 4-2-2-4 is NO MORE DIFFICULT for me and makes that shape MOVABLE.
    Perhaps I should have been more specific. 4224 and such is difficult for me. One of the strings gets blunted. But then, my technique is not letter-perfect. I don't plant my thumb on the back of the neck, as is often recommended, but tend to grip the neck in the crook of my hand between thumb and forefinger. Not so often recommended. This is moot, though, because 1224 is my go-to, and it's so easy to play.

    Quote Originally Posted by John Bertotti View Post
    ... my hand size and finger size seem to always put a flex point of a joint over a string and it doesn’t fret well generally just gets muted.
    Gotcha. There's something a bit unnatural about having to push down on the first segment of your finger in order to make a barre. It pushes backward on the joint and can be painful. Somehow, somewhere along the line, I pushed through this, and also having to scrunch down that same knuckle of my forefinger to make some chords. I felt like aI was sacrificing a bit of my fingers' well-being in order to achieve what I wanted in my playing. And in time it hurt less and less. That knuckle is a little different from its companion as a result. It may not be as dramatic for you, but something of that nature might be in order. You'll get used to it, hopefully. Like anything new, you adjust.
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  27. #17
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    Default Re: Moveable chords

    A good example of where I might use that shape 2 would be when playing the Robert Earl Keen version of My Home Ain’t In The Hall Of Fame in the Ky of F.

    I move from F to Bb back to F and then to Dm, like this:

    F 5-3-3-5
    Bb 3-3-5-6
    F 5-3-3-5
    Dm 2-3-5-x

    If I were to use 2-3-3-5 for F as I most often do, the contrast between the F and the Dm is too weak

    While I may not sound the E string on every strum, these are the voicing I settled on in that section of that song and the sound, to me, is good.
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  29. #18
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    Default Re: Moveable chords

    In playing The Needle And The Damage Done by Neil Young, the progression ends with Esus4 resolving to E

    For me, the best sound is achieved by playing Esus4 withe the 5 in the bass, followed by E major with the 3 in the bass, like this:

    4-2-0-0 to 1-2-2-0
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  31. #19
    Professional Dreamer journeybear's Avatar
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    Default Re: Moveable chords

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Gunter View Post
    If I were to use 2-3-3-5 for F as I most often do, the contrast between the F and the Dm is too weak
    I can see that. And it's probably preferable to make a two-note change between chords than a one-note. The ease of going between F 2335 and Dm 2355 is considerable, though, and the movement being on the A string - the most prominent string to my ears - it sounds like enough to me. As always, to each one's own.
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    Default Re: Moveable chords

    Quote Originally Posted by journeybear View Post
    I can see that. And it's probably preferable to make a two-note change between chords than a one-note. The ease of going between F 2335 and Dm 2355 is considerable, though, and the movement being on the A string - the most prominent string to my ears - it sounds like enough to me. As always, to each one's own.
    I agree wholeheartedly my friend, and I’m definitely not knocking your playing or your style or knowledge, I’m just sort of compelled to get my own point across, which is that a musician should not be discouraged from learning as many chord voicing as possible. It’s all difficult in the beginning. But the more choices you have to serve the music, the better IMO. If a person can play E5 well at 4-2-2-0 using two fingers, he or she can easily learn to add a third finger for 4-2-2-4 with some practice.

    Not that they have to, of course, but why not? The examples I gave are but a few of my own personal choices.
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  33. #21
    Professional Dreamer journeybear's Avatar
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    Default Re: Moveable chords

    Same here. Just providing two different viewpoints, which should be able to peacefully coexist. The OP can take from each what helps most - including anyone else's suggestions - depending on what's called for in different situations.
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    harvester of clams Bill McCall's Avatar
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    Default Re: Moveable chords

    Well gentlemen, doubling a note in a chord seems like a waste of a string and a finger. Can’t even say it’s no part of nuthin

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  35. #23
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    Default Re: Moveable chords

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill McCall View Post
    Well gentlemen, doubling a note in a chord seems like a waste of a string and a finger. Can’t even say it’s no part of nuthin

    Ymmv
    Lol okay Bill … we’ll just have to agree to disagree on that, especially when we’re talking about octaves … Jethro loved playing octaves BTW from what I hear. And you know you can buy a four string mandolin in order to avoiding double notes in each course.
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  37. #24
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    Default Re: Moveable chords

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill McCall View Post
    Well gentlemen, doubling a note in a chord seems like a waste of a string and a finger. Can’t even say it’s no part of nuthin
    Saying that ain't no part of nothin'. There, I've said it.

    Take that first chord, for instance, A 2245. Having two A notes two octaves apart makes for a fine bass-treble dialogue. It enables things like the little I-VIIb tickle on the top string. You can add to that with a IIIb-III slide or hammer-on leading up to that. It's a really cool tool when playing blues or ragtime.

    Also, that chord pattern creates a solid drone and a grounding for walk-downs on the top string - something I find is more productive on high strings than low strings on the high-pitched mandolin, differentiated from low strings on guitar. What I mean is holding the 224 and walking down 5-4-2-0 on the E string. One might have to adjust the hand's attitude a bit to pull this off, but it's not all that hard.

    For another example, there's C 5233 or 5230. This enables a I-V "bass" figure, 5-0. You can get a little fancier, even, with something like 5-5-0-2 or 5-2-0-2 or 5-0-2-4. There are a lot of ways to fill in the space between that I and V.

    There are plenty of other ways a double appearance of a note works nicely. Like in that E 1224. That high III note makes it a bit brighter. There's also E 1220 with a stronger root sound.

    It just seems to me, with only four notes to work with, might as well use them all. Granted, it's not always necessary, and there's much good to be said and dome with chord fragments. And also, bear in mind guitar chords often include not just one but two duplications, even three as in the G chord, 320003, with three G's. Does anyone fret over that? Yes, I said that.
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  38. #25
    harvester of clams Bill McCall's Avatar
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    Default Re: Moveable chords

    People think and play differently, trying to generate different sounds. But learning chords especially movable shapes, seems to me to be based on triads and I think that’s where beginning chord players should start.

    The website cited by the OP seems technically limited, to me. As pointed out earlier, chord resources on this site are much better.
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