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Thread: Nut file sizes

  1. #1

    Default Nut file sizes

    Hey there.
    I would like to ask about the various sizes of files used for a nut. It's become obv to me that it may be the issue with my constantly detuning issue. The setup is fine, the bridge is fine and I've even got a new armrest to ensure I am not resting my hand upon the bridge or strings. The machines seem to be fine and don't seem to slip, but as soon as I am done tuning, and I play a anything the top A string is going sharp. Occasionally a few of the other strings do the same thing, and a nice English gentleman sent me an article about how it's almost never the machines and it's almost always the nut, and after reading the article I examined the nut and the strings DO seem to be too high there. Stew Mac wants 80 bucks for unspecified sizes. (just Light or Medium) and I use those custom xt strings 11.5, 16, 25, 40, I believe the sizes are. Any-ol-ways, I have no problem converting the inch size of the strings to millimeters my issue is not knowing whether to use tapered files or straight files has anyone done this sort of thing with files they've purchased from a hardware store or the like? Any help is appreciated.


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    -B.

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Nut file sizes

    The Stew-mac nut file set gauged for mandolin [their product number 0942] will work fine. They list the sizes as .013", 016", .028", .042". The cost is $62.53.

    Or, you can go to a jeweler's supplier and buy Grobet "round edge joint files." They are sized metrically. Last time I checked, they were running about $18 apiece.

    Someone will probably suggest torch cleaners from a hardware store, but the ones that I have encountered do not work very well. I do not think you will find anything at the hardware store that will do the job easily and correctly.

    I use the Grobet files, which were the only durable files I could find when I set up my shop 35 years ago. After many thousands of strokes, they are finally wearing out. I will probably replace them with a set of double-edge nut files from either Warmouth or Stew-mac, but those are more than you will need for your job. They are more durable, but more expensive than the Stew-mac mandolin set.

    Straight sided files will work, but sometimes tend to bind while cutting. Files with tapered sides work more smoothly, but are more expensive. The double edge files from Warmouth [their product number NFS3] and Stew-mac [product number 4541, 4542, and 4542] have tapered sides.
    Last edited by rcc56; Jan-18-2022 at 10:21pm.

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  4. #3
    Adrian Minarovic
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    Default Re: Nut file sizes

    a string going up in pitch is clear sign of tight binding nut slot IMO.
    I use set of feeler gauges. I rounded edges and cut very fine teeth into them. They work fine and come in all sizes imaginable. I think I've seen such sets for sale somewhere.
    Adrian

  5. #4

    Default Re: Nut file sizes

    I would be more interested in the part# or file# concerning grobet. I have discovered them on my own in the last few hours researching and attempting to solve it on my own. They have a section in one of their catalogues entitled "string instrument files" but it doesn't come close to the sizes needed for the job which we describe. It's a lot harder to find a .0381mm/.0115 file than one may think. If you have those #'s for grobet I'd love to have them, but if not I'll call them tomorrow and find exactly what I THINK I need. The options become rather limited as I understand it at such a fine grade. I'm thinking-half rounds, that way I can do one side at at time and see how well it works/doesn't work. I'm sure I will make a mess of things and have to buy a new nut and/or take it to a Luthier ���� I guess we can only do what we can with what we got.

  6. #5

    Default Re: Nut file sizes

    Oh man, I do not have any idea of what you are talking about beyond tight binding in the slot. Can I simply file away the tight spots in the slot? Another thing/symptom is when I tune up my D's, they will pop, or sound like they are and go up a half step with only a tiny turn of the peg. My G's used to do that as well, but after tightening the screws on the machines all around those string's machines, it functions normally. Did the same thing for the D's machines and pegs, etc but it seemed to make it worse for them, so I loosened them and now...it acts like a redheaded step child, pardon my french. I don't know what the heck is going on.

  7. #6

    Default Re: Nut file sizes

    Wouldn't a size .013 be too large for a, say, .0115 or .010 string? I thought having a slot so much larger would cause a buzz or hummmmm with the string vibration and what have you.

  8. #7

    Default Re: Nut file sizes

    Quote Originally Posted by ol trashfire joe View Post
    Wouldn't a size .013 be too large for a, say, .0115 or .010 string? I thought having a slot so much larger would cause a buzz or hummmmm with the string vibration and what have you.
    Nope, you make the slot tapered and it rests in the bottom of the slot if it's the right shape. Kind of like how you can put a tennis ball in any sized bowl, or pour sand through a funnel. You just need a nice clean knife edge and a tapered groove (kind of like a funnel) for the string to be guided up to that knife edge and you're golden. The actual size of the slot isn't critical to .001".

    This article should help. RIP Paul!
    http://www.lutherie.net/nuts.html

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  10. #8

    Default Re: Nut file sizes

    Might try lubing the slots with graphite from a pencil.

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  12. #9

    Default Re: Nut file sizes

    Yup, that was the one that kind gentleman sent me. Okay, I am feeling a little better about taking this on. Thank you!!

  13. #10
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    Default Re: Nut file sizes

    Joe, it appears that the Grobet round edge joint files are not listed in their current catalog. They might have been discontinued.
    The Stew-mac nut files will work.

  14. #11
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    Default Re: Nut file sizes

    Quote Originally Posted by ol trashfire joe View Post
    ... when I tune up my D's, they will pop ... and go up a half step with only a tiny turn of the peg.
    Tight nut slots often mean that not all of your additional tuning tension is transferred to the working length of the string (nut to bidge). Some of that tension remains between the nut and tuner until vibration, maybe from playing, causes the string to pull thru the nut, sometines with a "pop". Tension near the tuner has been released to the musical portion of the string, which is now at a higher pitch. That's why lubricating the nut slots (graphite, mentioned above) -may be- all that's needed.

    BTW:
    1) A given size slot file can cut several thousandths wider simply by rolling side-to-side while filing.
    2) On typical mandolins, some binding might also happen at the bridge but is far less common as the slots tend to be shallower and of softer material (wood).
    - Ed

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    Default Re: Nut file sizes

    The two cheapest and easiest ways to potentially fix the issue with the least amount of risk are to try lubing the slot with graphite (pencil lead is fine, but there’s also tubes of graphite you can find at hardware stores when the have their Boy Scouts Derby car supplies out-a little messier than pencil lead), or simply push on the strings above the nut after you initially tune so that the string goes sharp and then you can adjust. If the bind is tight, of course, neither of these will work well.

    I agree that the torch cleaner solution, which is likely to cost < 7 bucks, doesn’t work terribly well if you have a lot of filing to do, but for this application they may be just enough to get the job done. I have a lot of instruments and with only a couple of exceptions they’ve needed some nut filing, so I bought a set of the Stew Mac files and agree they work very well.

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    Default Re: Nut file sizes

    Or you could find a competenr acoustic fretted instrument repair person to set up and adjust your instrument.
    With any luck, it won't cost much more than a set of good files that you will only use once or twice, and he won't ruin the nut.
    . . . If the nut really is the cause of your problem.

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  18. #14
    Registered User j. condino's Avatar
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    Default Re: Nut file sizes

    Quote Originally Posted by rcc56 View Post
    Or you could find a competenr acoustic fretted instrument repair person to set up and adjust your instrument.
    With any luck, it won't cost much more than a set of good files that you will only use once or twice, and he won't ruin the nut.
    . . . If the nut really is the cause of your problem.
    You could cut and paste this response for 95% of the questions asked here!

    Adding a little, find one who also teaches and get a lesson in setup work. You'll learn the skills, but more so, you'll get a chance to try out all of their tools and find the ones that fit your hands and needs best, likely saving you hundreds of dollars in disappointing tool purchases.

    Almost every issue I run into with lutherie is a matter of problem solving. 95% of the overpriced tools that the big companies sell can easily be fabricated for a few dollars, but that doesn't help them sell millions of dollars worth of tools every year or pay off their $180 million dollar loans from buying someone else's company....

    I have several hundred dollars in nice nut files- from the tiny mandolin ones all the way up to Marlboro sized for double bass work. The irony is that many times I will forgo those and use a simple piece of 400 grit sandpaper wrapped around an old popsicle stick that was sanded thin with the same sheet; similar to how with mandolins I use very detailed micrometers and feeler guage set but for the double bass I use a nickel, a dime, and a folded business card for measuring string height at the nut.

    For my first two decades, all of my nut work was done with a triangular shaped dzouki sharpening file that I got for 2000 yen (approx. $10) at my local hardware store in Okinawa. I own the Ibanez, the Grobet, the full Stew mac, and some others. They all work well for some things yet require some rolling technique for others.

    There is no way even as a professional that I can justify paying $550 for the fancy diamond nut files, especially knowing that they are likely a commonly available item that has been repurposed- just like the $100+ diamond fret end rounding file. If you pull back the cute red handle coating, you will see the Kanji label and realize that it is a common $25 Japanese fish hook file....
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  20. #15

    Default Re: Nut file sizes

    May have asked this before: If the nut grooves are ok, but, as common, all are too high, why not just carefully sand the bottom rather than take on the skilled filing job?. Of course, I’ve done this on my educational rescues, and also raised the nut with paper, but haven’t seen either mentioned.

    And, just for the OP, jewelers files in cheap sets, feeler gauges auto stores, old wound strings as self string files etc.

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    Default Re: Nut file sizes

    If the nut height is ok, but the slots are binding the fix is simple, no special tools needed. Use a round file, chain saw file will work, and file the top part of the slot wider leaving the bottom untouched. You need to go low enough to not bind the sides, but keep a grove for the sting.
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    Default Re: Nut file sizes

    Quote Originally Posted by rcc56 View Post
    Or you could find a competenr acoustic fretted instrument repair person to set up and adjust your instrument.
    With any luck, it won't cost much more than a set of good files that you will only use once or twice, and he won't ruin the nut.
    . . . If the nut really is the cause of your problem.
    Agree 100%…unless you just want to understand a piece of that art, too. I’m no cowboy when it comes to this, and if my Kelley required work I’d absolutely get it back to Skip. But, I like learning about instruments, how they work, and how to optimize their performance. So, my first nut and saddle replacements will be on a POS all laminate classical guitar maybe worth 25 bucks and my Guild D40 blem, in that order. And, if I can’t get it right I’ve got a guy I’ll pay to do it (not for the classical, but the Guikd is good enough to make it worth it). But, there aren’t a ton of good mandolin competent luthiers around, so I’d rather learn how to do it correctly myself than take a chance with a guitar tech who may or may not really understand this. My Stew Mac files may be overpriced fish hook files, but they’ve already paid for themselves. But, I wish I’d known the fish hook file info prior to purchase

    I have nothing but respect for those of you that repair and/or build instruments for a living, and some of you are true artists.
    Last edited by CES; Jan-19-2022 at 11:43pm.

  23. #18

    Default Re: Nut file sizes

    Thanks Ed, it seems like the bridge is stable, but as i have never owned and therefore experienced the regular use of a floating bridge, i cannot be totally sure about that. Is there signs of wear or deepened string positions on the bridge that i should look for?

  24. #19

    Default Re: Nut file sizes

    i just don't know if i can justify to myself spending 70 or any amount remotely close to that on a set of 4 tiny pieces of metal. not that i do not agree that they are the right tool for the job, and most likely quality. i have been continuing to read up and found that some folks use the feeler gauges as a nut saw of sorts after some alterations are made to gauge. i need to find out what one does to a gauge like that in order for it to be a working type of saw for this job.

  25. #20

    Default Re: Nut file sizes

    i had the same concern about it not being the problem. i do prefer to do the work myself if i can. i recently installed my banjo spikes, and i am not completely dissatisfied with the job i did. they are functional, but i feel like they arent perfect, so it bothers me. 85 is the going rate where i am currently for any type of basic setup, which does not include alterations. those cost extra.sheesh, i thought playing acoustic instruments would be cheaper than electric, but i had no idea, lol. i love it though.

  26. #21

    Default Re: Nut file sizes

    this is truly funny, i was just reading about usiing feelers for a type of saw. do you have to alter the edge of the gauge at aill, or just roll with it the way it is? grobet has so many options, but currently do not offer the shape in the size i need or thought i needed in their catalogue. i believe i know a store nearby where i can purchase a set of gauges for $4.99. that sounds a lot better than $18 for one file that may or may not perfect for what i am trying to do. but, yeah, do i need to alter the gauge, and if so, how do i go about that, what do i use to do it? i worked on a few instruments when i worked at a music shop in my hometown, many many moons ago. i love it. i should take a course and learn if not for work, at least for myself and friends i could help down the road....its food for my thought

  27. #22
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    Default Re: Nut file sizes

    Quote Originally Posted by ol trashfire joe View Post
    this is truly funny, i was just reading about usiing feelers for a type of saw. do you have to alter the edge of the gauge at aill, or just roll with it the way it is? ...
    That was mentioned and briefly explained in the second reply to your original post.
    "It's comparable to playing a cheese slicer."
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  28. #23
    Adrian Minarovic
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    Default Re: Nut file sizes

    I posted about the gauges but here it is more detailed...
    Their edges are generaly square or something like that so I just pull along some fine diamond file to chamfer edges and then finish it round with few strokes of fine sandpaper (400ish grit) against my finger. Teeth can be cut using fine triangular file so they form tiny saw. You anly need 1" or so of toothed edge.
    I start new notches in nut with triangular file almost to final depth and just do the last few passes with the gauges to round the bottom. On pearl nuts I prefer to polish the inside of slots as pearl can be somewhat abrasive and rough after filing. For this I just take piece of fine sandpaper (800-1200-2000) and wrap it around the rounded toothless edge of feeler gauge that gives me the proper diameter with the sandpaper added and do few passes with that. The polished bottoms of pearl nut slots work much smoother and last longer (strings tend to abrade pearl more than good bone)
    Adrian

  29. #24
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    Default Re: Nut file sizes

    I've read James Condino reference the mysterious Japanese Fish Hook/Stew Mac diamond fret file in several forum posts. One included the photo below. However, this diamond file does not seem to look or work like any Stew Mac diamond fret file. Am I missing something?
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Bryan Patrick

  30. #25
    Registered User j. condino's Avatar
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    Default Re: Nut file sizes

    Google is your friend....

    Search around and you will see that they are very common and made in literally thousands of different shapes and sizes. The photo you posted is merely one example.

    30 seconds of grinding on a belt sander and it will have a completely different shape. My world is all about modifying readily available affordable tools to meet my needs, not modifying my needs for the sake of a tool.....very similar to Stradivari's "secret" varnish formula actually being commonly available items found at the local hardware store in Cremona. It is just that what they stock on the shelves has changed a bit in the last 300 years.

    Some folks wear a $500 custom painted racing helmet and other folks wear an old baseball hat and call it good. I've broken more helmets than I can remember....

    To everyone complaining about prices for nut files, you can always buy them, use it for the job you need, and then resell them on ebay or someplace similar. I do that all of the time and usually am surprised that I rarely loose any money. For many of us, that is the only way to see if a fancy tool in a catalog actually works like advertised- to have it in hand and use it as intended. Unfortunately, I'd say that 75% of the specialty tools I buy wind up back on ebay within two months, but the ones I keep have proven their worth.
    www.condino.com

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