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Thread: Where do the names F-style and A-style actually come from?

  1. #26
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    Default Re: Where do the names F-style and A-style actually come from?

    My first significant other named her mandolin "Matthew." I'm pretty sure that the only reason she chose that name was because she liked the sound of it.
    We invited a younger fellow [we were all young then] for a jam session. Back then, I was learning the fiddle.
    When he heard Pattee call her mandolin "Matthew," he asked me what I called my violin. Without missing a beat, I responded "Fidel."
    He didn't get the joke.

    . . . "Abigail?" "Fiona?" Archimedes? Fido? etc . . .

  2. #27
    The Amateur Mandolinist Mark Gunter's Avatar
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    Default Re: Where do the names F-style and A-style actually come from?

    I think you might be onto something, that’s why there was a MayFlower mandolin and a Wendy’s hamburger after all
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  3. #28
    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: Where do the names F-style and A-style actually come from?

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeEdgerton View Post
    If you can explain to me why U = Harp Guitar I might consider changing my mind
    In actuality there were two designations for early Gibson harp guitars: R & U. See this article by George Gruhn: https://guitars.com/vintage-guitars/...-r-harp-guitar
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  4. #29
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    Default Re: Where do the names F-style and A-style actually come from?

    R U kidding?!? No? Oh. OK ...

    I'm more than willing to accept the "A" designation as representing the first style, the starting point. I have never seen anything that sensibly explains the "F" designation for the F style; it should have been "B." The missing intervening letters may have represented proposed styles that never made it past the prototype stage to production, though I'd think they just as well could have used "B" all the same. Most of the explanations for the "F" designation resemble back-formation, as far as I can tell. It's all a mystery, unsolvable without a time machine.

    Allen's point regarding banjo model designations as well as that for the electric mandolin is salient. It's unfortunate that no similar designation derivation exists for the rest of the product line. Or not - they're free to call them whatever they wish.

    There's a saying around here, when someone makes an excuse for improper behavior, or to explain the unexplainable. Delivered with a shrug of the shoulders, one says, "It's Key West." It drives me nuts, as it doesn't mean anything, yet people think it does, and that's all one has to say; you're supposed to understand and accept it, as if it does explain things. Even though it doesn't. The equivalent here is, "It's Gibson."
    Last edited by journeybear; Jan-18-2022 at 7:11pm. Reason: just one more thing ...
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  6. #30
    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: Where do the names F-style and A-style actually come from?

    There was this thread from October 2020 that discussed much of what we talked about here: https://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/t...e-numbers-mean

    In that thread Scott posted this from and older list on the CoMando Listserv (some of which is incorrect):
    A - ovoid mandolins
    B - banjo - also RB - resonator banjo
    C - classical guitar
    E - electric instruments ES= electric Spanish guitar
    F - florentine mandolins
    G - guitar (steel string)
    H - mandola
    J - jumbo guitar
    K - mandocello
    L - guitars
    J = mandobass
    O= (orchestra?) guitar
    U = harp guitar
    TL = tenor lute (4 or 8 string tenor neck on f- hole pear shaped mandola body)
    RB - Regular (5-string) banjo
    MB- mandolin banjo
    TB = tenor banjo
    PB= plectrum banjo
    CB = cello banjo
    UB = ukulele banjo
    J = jumbo guitar
    C=classical guitar
    B = guitar (B-25)
    TG= tenor guitar
    EB= electric bass guitar
    EH = electric hawaiian guitar
    ES = Electric Spanish guitar
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  8. #31
    Mandolingerer Bazz Jass's Avatar
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    Default Re: Where do the names F-style and A-style actually come from?

    Always assumed F mandolins were named after a resemblance in part to the cursive "F"

    It's what I always see when I look at one, but I'll admit I'm wrong having been further edumicated!


  9. #32
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    Default Re: Where do the names F-style and A-style actually come from?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Garber View Post
    In that thread Scott posted this from an older list on the CoMando Listserv (some of which is incorrect)
    OK, I'm looking at this as an editor. I love lists, but they must be orderly. This is not. As introduced, it is incorrect. I'm going to offer some points of correction, suggest some changes to make it more consistent, whether or not more correct. That's a different consideration.

    I presume this is an alpha list of model names, or originally intended to be that. It starts out that way, but goes a bit wonky. The banjo designations are grouped together, thematically, but out of alphabetical order. Similarly, the electric models are in a group at the end (mostly), though the ES appears in order, but also is duplicated at the end with the other E's. EM is missing altogether. And B designates both banjo and some guitar models. Now, I could put them in order, strictly alphabetically, which would spread the banjos all over - and I know there are some here who might feel uneasy at seeing banjos spread all over - but for the purpose of an alpha list, that is necessary. It's a bit of grunt work, but I'm good at grunt work. Maybe I'll do that in a while, if I can be assured I won't be stepping on someone's toes. I don't want to upset anyone's apple cart, or alpha chart.

    But anyway, while it's interesting to see all this compiled in a mostly orderly fashion, it doesn't solve the burning question that has brought us here. It's clear that model letters were not assigned in a strictly alphabetical fashion chronologically. For instance, the electric instruments were introduced much later than many of these models. The late-appearing U predates many models which appear on this list before it. But it is impressive to see all these different models presented, to see the scope of the product line Gibson offered and what those in the front office had to contend with to organize somehow.

    It also answers the question of what was between A and F, in a way. Though those letters were not assigned in chronological order (someone will have to tell us when Gibson began producing banjos), they're all there, except for a stand-alone E, and D. That was stolen by Martin.
    But that's just my opinion. I could be wrong. - Dennis Miller

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  10. #33
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    Default Re: Where do the names F-style and A-style actually come from?

    Here is that corrected alpha list of Gibson models by model designation. That took a lot less time than I thought it would. It is strictly in alphabetical order, even though chronological order is rather more important in this discussion. For instance, "J - jumbo guitar" appears before "J - mandobass," alphabetically, not chronologically. In any event, this represents one person's attempt to impose order on chaos, a key element of the human condition. I hope it helps some somehow.

    A - ovoid mandolins
    B - banjo
    B - guitar (B-25)
    C - classical guitar
    CB - cello banjo
    EB - electric bass guitar
    EH - electric Hawaiian guitar
    EM - electric mandolin
    ES - electric Spanish guitar
    F - "florentine" mandolins
    G - guitar (steel string)
    H - mandola
    J - jumbo guitar
    J - mandobass
    K - mandocello
    L - guitar
    MB - mandolin banjo
    O - (orchestra?) guitar
    PB - plectrum banjo
    R - harp guitar
    RB - regular (5-string) banjo
    RB - resonator banjo
    TB - tenor banjo
    TG - tenor guitar
    TL - tenor lute
    U - harp guitar
    UB - ukulele banjo
    But that's just my opinion. I could be wrong. - Dennis Miller

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  12. #34
    Moderator MikeEdgerton's Avatar
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    Default Re: Where do the names F-style and A-style actually come from?

    Actually the complete corrected list already exists someplace on the Cafe, I just haven't had the time to look for it.
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    Default Re: Where do the names F-style and A-style actually come from?

    Joke time.
    Can't say for sure who was the first to name them, but any more some dude named Vern Acular gets all the credit.

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    Default Re: Where do the names F-style and A-style actually come from?

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeEdgerton View Post
    Actually the complete corrected list already exists someplace on the Cafe, I just haven't had the time to look for it.
    Oh, goody! So we've got that to look forward to.

    I think this is good enough for our purposes, though. There is a purpose to this, yes?

    Anyway, all I did was put each designation in alpha order, separate groups of banjos and guitars, and remove duplicates and extraneous info. Plus minor tweaks for neatness, consistency, and such. It's not perfect, but it's better. IMO, YMMV.
    But that's just my opinion. I could be wrong. - Dennis Miller

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    Default Re: Where do the names F-style and A-style actually come from?

    I may have found the post you mentioned. It's in a thread entitled "A4, A5, F4, F5--what do the numbers mean?" from October 2020, but it's copped from the Mandolin Glossary, a list called Gibson Serial Numbers. It's identical to what you posted. In that thread, however, Allen mentions yet another designation, the LG, for a smaller guitar produced in the late '40's/early '50's, by his estimate.

    Will it never end? It must! It must!

    Well, if you wish to amend the Glossary entry and use this list (including the LG), you are welcome to it. I don't want any credit; knowing that the list will be more in order (more or less) and user-friendly will be enough. Other than that, I believe I am done with this phase of the Eternal Search For Knowledge And Truth, and am walking away ... Surely it's time for practice ... or lunch ...
    But that's just my opinion. I could be wrong. - Dennis Miller

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    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: Where do the names F-style and A-style actually come from?

    I nominate journeybear to be official secretary of the Gibson Naming Appreciation Society. Anyone second this nomination?

    You are looking for logic from the Gibson Company? Good luck. There are multiple anomalies throughout its history as we all know. Letters were assigned by someone and then someone else had their favorites. By the 1930s they started naming their models by the prices they were sold for. SJ-200, J-45, A-50, etc. Make little sense if you have to change the name as the price goes up. Of course, other companies had their eccentricities. Consider also Lyon & Healy. Martin was the most consistent but even they have their odd naming system, for instance: The Style 15, 20, 30 carved mandolins with oval holes followed up by the 2-15, 2-20, 2-30 ones with f-holes.

    And so it goes...
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  18. #39
    harvester of clams Bill McCall's Avatar
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    Default Re: Where do the names F-style and A-style actually come from?

    Hats off to those who spend time thinking about this. Has as much social utility as watching golf or football.
    Not all the clams are at the beach

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    Default Re: Where do the names F-style and A-style actually come from?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Garber View Post
    I nominate journeybear to be official secretary of the Gibson Naming Appreciation Society. Anyone second this nomination?
    No, no, no! If nominated, I will not run; if elected, I will not serve.

    Seriously. There are many others much more actually knowledgeable who would be far better in that position.

    You are looking for logic from the Gibson Company? Good luck.
    Right? And no, even though I am fond of Quixotic ventures and Sisyphean tasks. I just wanted some logic in the list. That was attainable. What you ask, sir, is impossible.

    And so it goes...
    Indeed. Same as it ever was ... same as it ever was ...
    But that's just my opinion. I could be wrong. - Dennis Miller

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    Moderator MikeEdgerton's Avatar
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    Default Re: Where do the names F-style and A-style actually come from?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Garber View Post
    I nominate journeybear to be official secretary of the Gibson Naming Appreciation Society. Anyone second this nomination?

    You are looking for logic from the Gibson Company? Good luck. There are multiple anomalies throughout its history as we all know....
    Second the nomination.

    Also agree with looking for logic in Gibson naming conventions is more than problematic. You just have to look at the lump scroll and two point mandolins of the 60's and 70's. Then Jim has to throw R in as a harp guitar possibility and I'm totally flummoxed.
    "It's comparable to playing a cheese slicer."
    --M. Stillion

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    Default Re: Where do the names F-style and A-style actually come from?

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeEdgerton View Post
    Second the nomination.
    I'll donate a stapler.

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    Professional Dreamer journeybear's Avatar
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    Default Re: Where do the names F-style and A-style actually come from?

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeEdgerton View Post
    Second the nomination.
    I say, I say (in Foghorn Leghorn's voice): If nominated, I will not run; if elected, I will not serve.


    Quote Originally Posted by MikeEdgerton
    Also agree with looking for logic in Gibson naming conventions is more than problematic. You just have to look at the lump scroll and two point mandolins of the 60's and 70's. Then Jim has to throw R in as a harp guitar possibility and I'm totally flummoxed.
    And add to that the LG that Allen mentioned. Yes, it's maddening.
    But that's just my opinion. I could be wrong. - Dennis Miller

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    Default Re: Where do the names F-style and A-style actually come from?

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeEdgerton View Post
    You were told wrong. There's nothing to support that in any Gibson documentation. Up until the electric guitar age the only thing that was ever labeled Florentine was a banjo with scenes from Venice on the fretboard.
    Well, this wouldn't be the first time I was fed BS.

  26. #45
    Mando accumulator allenhopkins's Avatar
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    Default Re: Where do the names F-style and A-style actually come from?

    Gibson has made -- and I guess, still makes on a custom basis -- a Les Paul Florentine, with a "chambered" semi-hollow body, and a sharply-pointed "Florentine" cutaway. They also made at least one Florentine tenor guitar in 1928, with the painted Venetian scenes on the fretboard.

    Gibson Florentine instruments have about as much to do with Florence, as their Granada banjos have to do with Spain. And, as I stated above, the only mandolin they called "Florentine" was a two-point electric solid-body, the EM-200.

    So many threads on the Cafe have documented anomalies, discrepancies, and idiosyncrasies in Gibson's designations, serial numbering, cosmetics and construction details, that it should come as no surprise that their model classifications don't follow a clear and logical sequence -- that letter prefixes sometimes stand for the instruments associated with them, and sometimes don't; that numbering schemes proceed in logical order for a while, then depart in unexpected directions. Several Gibson mandolin styles have been designated "A-5," for example; A-1's have had oval holes and f-holes, "normal" and extra-wide bodies, depending on vintage.

    I pretty much stopped trying to figure out the reasoning behind Gibson model designations, and just sat back and enjoyed all the discussions, disputes and diversity. Life's too short, ya know what I mean...?
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    Default Re: Where do the names F-style and A-style actually come from?

    Aside from the ukulele-banjo (UB), Gibson also made ukuleles from 1926 to 1967. These were made in Style 1, 2 or 3 with style 3 being the deluxe model. These were made in soprano and tenor scale. Sopranos were called S1, 2 or 3 and tenors were T1,2 or 3. I wonder if the guys at Gibson were wishing they had labeled the harp guitar HG so U would be available for ukulele?

  28. #47

    Default Re: Where do the names F-style and A-style actually come from?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Oliver View Post
    Joke time.
    Can't say for sure who was the first to name them, but any more some dude named Vern Acular gets all the credit.
    Reminds me of the early days of the internet. Some guy named Mike Rowe had a website called mikerowesoft.com He had a legitimate claim, but was soon pressured to shut down by the more well-known company. ( I read this on the internet years ago, so it may be urban legend....YMMV)

    How about A = austere & F = fancy? just a thought....

  29. #48
    Moderator MikeEdgerton's Avatar
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    Default Re: Where do the names F-style and A-style actually come from?

    It has it's own page. I love thread drift.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_v._MikeRoweSoft
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  31. #49
    small instrument, big fun Dan in NH's Avatar
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    Default Re: Where do the names F-style and A-style actually come from?

    All I know is my Gibson ES-355, the "ES" stands for "Electric Spanish." And for a Gibson SG, the "SG" stands for "Solidbody Guitar."

    So make of that what you will.
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    And still saving my nickels & dimes & bottle caps & breakfast cereal box tops for my lifetime mandolin.

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    Professional Dreamer journeybear's Avatar
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    Default Re: Where do the names F-style and A-style actually come from?

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeEdgerton View Post
    Up until the electric guitar age the only thing that was ever labeled Florentine was a banjo with scenes from Venice on the fretboard.
    Quote Originally Posted by rickbella View Post
    Well, this wouldn't be the first time I was fed BS.
    Does that stand for Banjo - Scenic?
    But that's just my opinion. I could be wrong. - Dennis Miller

    Furthering Mandolin Consciousness

    Finders Keepers, my duo with the astoundingly talented and versatile Patti Rothberg. Our EP is finally done, and available! PM me, while they last!

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