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Thread: Beginner staining & finishing

  1. #1

    Default Beginner staining & finishing

    I'm about to stain & finish my first, a Saga kit (see https://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/t...for-Saga-AM-10 .)

    Here are the "before finishing" pictures, from that thread.

    Attachment 197958 Attachment 197959 Attachment 197960

    My goal is something like this, though I'm not expecting exact color matches:

    https://i0.wp.com/hillcountrystringw...pg?w=800&ssl=1

    Here's another I like, though I'd want a bit more color range:

    https://themandolinstore.com/wp-cont...-2-500x667.jpg

    I don't know the first thing about staining and finishing, other than what I've read here. In the past I've used Formby's, which I love because it's so forgiving, but I think I want to try something else. I plan to follow this process:

    1. Sand through 220 or 320, remove all marks and scratches.

    2. Dampen the wood to raise the grain, let dry and then sand again. Repeat if necessary.

    3. Apply the dye directly to the wood, like in @starburst's excellent video, posted below.

    4. Seal?

    5. Finish with Tru-oil. I think the Tru-oil is a good fit given my level of patience (way higher than most people, but not as high as most of the builders here) and experience (= 0).

    So, starting with the dyes: @sunburst says "LMI sells a red aniline dye for wood, along with yellow, blue, amber, brown, and black." Makes sense to me. He also says,
    To get the dark burgundy/black cherry color, I would start with red, and add black until the darkness was getting close, testing on scrap wood as I added the black.
    When it's almost dark enough, compare it to the color you're trying to match. If it's too red, add some green (yellow and blue). If it isn't yellow enough, add yellow. If it's too yellow, add violet. Whatever it takes.
    I'm tempted to start with just black, red, and amber, and hope I don't need to add blue or violet. Since I don't have a specific target, chances are good.

    The aniline dyes are alcohol-soluble. Is this a good match for use with Tru-oil? (I don't know what the solvent is for Tru-oil.)

    Do I need to seal, and if so, with what?

    About the back: it's maple, and I have nothing comparable to test with. I'm tempted to take the second (reddest) color from the front and do the back in just that color. I want to preserve or highlight the flames. I suspect it would be hard to do a sunburst matching the front, since the wood is so different.

    That leaves the sides and neck. I'm tempted to use the darkest color (which will be lighter than most sunbursts) for those and just let it be whatever it is. But I'm open to ideas.

    Finally, the headstock has a rosewood overlay. The fingerboard and bridge are rosewood as well, but none of the rosewoods match much in color. So, no idea what to do with the overlay.

    @starburst's video:


  2. #2
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    Default Re: Beginner staining & finishing

    I like aniline dyes.
    I am a firm believer in practicing the process, including stain, sealer, and finish coats, on a piece of scrap to make sure everything will work.

    Whatever you use for a finish, yes, seal. An initial coat or two of sealer is essential to stabilize the color. Some people apply a very thin wash coat of shellac before applying the stain, some do not. At any rate, let your stain dry longer than you think it needs to before applying your first coat of sealer. There will be less chance of messing up the stain. Then, use a very light initial coat of sealer, being careful not to rub or stroke over anything more than once, so you avoid lifting the stain. Let dry at least a day, and then you can apply another coat or two of sealer, more generously this time. Let dry a long time between coats.

    One of the most important aspects of good finishing is to learn to let everything dry really well before proceeding to the next step. Most problems are caused by trying to execute the finishing process too quickly. Learn to wait, even if it goes against your nature.

    If you use anything that needs an alcohol solvent, including alcohol soluble dyes, use pure grain alcohol rather than denatured alcohol. Denatured alcohol can cause color changes, drying problems, and sometimes has a nasty way of turning everything green. I can't give any help on Tru-oil. I come from the restoration world, so it is not a good fit for the kind of work I do here. Someone else will have to give advice on its compatibility with other products.

    Because I do restoration work, I prefer French polished shellac, or occasionally oil varnish. And there is always rattle can lacquer. I usually get my lacquer from my local Woodcraft store. They carry Mohawk/Behlen instrument lacquer, which costs less than getting it from Stew-mac or LMI, and is good quality stuff. I get my shellac and varnish from International Violin, and pure grain alcohol from the liquor store.

    Good luck! Practice on scrap over and over-- you will get much better results when it's time to do the real thing.
    Last edited by rcc56; Dec-25-2021 at 12:39pm.

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  4. #3

    Default Re: Beginner staining & finishing

    Thanks! What do you recommend as a sealer?

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    Default Re: Beginner staining & finishing

    I use thin shellac. Some people use the canned stuff [make sure it is de-waxed], but I don't know which product would fit the bill. Since I French polish, I use shellac flakes dissolved in grain alcohol.
    And other folks may have better suggestions for a sealer to use with Tru-oil.

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    Default Re: Beginner staining & finishing

    One reason to seal before staining is to minimize dye being preferentially absorbed by the end grain like in the f holes. Another is that it allows you to scrape all the color off and start over if necessary.

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  9. #6
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    Default Re: Beginner staining & finishing

    Rc556, do you use alcohol or water based aniline dyes? Thanks for you erudite and educational posts on this site.
    Dan Scullin
    Louisville, KY

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    Default Re: Beginner staining & finishing

    I use alcohol dyes, for no particular reasons except that they are all I've ever used, and they will mix with shellac and other spirit varnishes; and also that they can be mixed with lacquer if you add 25% acetone to the dye solution.

    Some folks prefer water base dyes, especially in new construction. There is less of a chance that they will be lifted by sealers and finishes, but they will also raise the grain much more. I do not know how well they can be blended together to create shaded or sunbursted finishes. Either someone else will have to contribute their experience, or you will have to try both out and see for yourself.

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    Default Re: Beginner staining & finishing

    How often do you mix your dyes with shellac? I have been kicking this idea around awhile but I haven't tried it.
    My avatar is of my OldWave Oval A

    Creativity is just doing something wierd and finding out others like it.

  13. #9

    Default Re: Beginner staining & finishing

    I seal spruce with super blonde shellac (then fine sand) to make it easier to move the color around and blend. Otherwise, spruce can end up splotchy (some builders like that effect). When I used aniline dyes, I used alcohol because I found it easier to blend. I've switched to TransTint in a lacquer thinner and retarder base.

    Follow Sunburst's video and you should come out fine. You could always make a dummy top out of 2x6s to run through all the steps and practice on.

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    Default Re: Beginner staining & finishing

    That was me doing that video (not sure who @starburst is )
    For some reason that thing has kind of taken on a life of it's own. I didn't intend it to be an instructional video. That mandolin was the "Mandolincafe restoration challenge" instrument that was done by a handful of luthiers here, and it was simply to show a bit of the process of coloring the mandolin per the request of several people on here. The thread is an interesting read, for those who haven't seen it.

    It was not my usual 'burst, I was replicating as closely as I could the color of a Gibson A-4, so I was using dyes a little more dilute than usual so that I could proceed slowly and make corrections as they were needed. They dyes were Transtint (metal complex) dyes in alcohol. Near the end I was airbrushing some dye on some of the slightly blotchy places to even out the 'burst.

    I sealed the color with a couple of very light sprays of blonde shellac and then scraped the bindings. From there it went to the next luthier in line (Will Kimble) for varnish.

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    Default Re: Beginner staining & finishing

    Quote Originally Posted by John Bertotti View Post
    How often do you mix your dyes with shellac? I have been kicking this idea around awhile but I haven't tried it.
    This may sound flippant [it's not], but when the job calls for it. One example is that when I replace or repair bindings, I usually dye the shellac lightly, and build up the color slowly. Most of the finish work I do is touch-up work, and what I use and how I go about it depends on how the existing finish was done and how I think I can best blend the new finish in with the old. In many cases, I have to figure it out as I go. Few of us are really good at touch-up work [I'm not]. I have learned to be satisfied if the touch-up does not stick out like a sore thumb.

    I suppose that my fondness for aniline dyes is based on 2 things: 1. The colors are an excellent match for early 20th century instruments, and 2. I can mix up only as much as I need, and the powders have a very long shelf life as long as they're stored in a reasonably dry environment.

    In the violin world, staining bare wood is unpopular. They prefer to mix their colors with the finish medium.

    My experience with the use of color in old Gibson instruments is that sometimes the color is in the wood, sometimes in the varnish or lacquer, and often, the color is in both the wood and the finish.

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  19. #12
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    Default Re: Beginner staining & finishing

    After re-reading Jeff's original posts and looking at all of his links, I'm going to offer the following thoughts:

    I see red, amber, and just a touch of brown. I also see a bit of yellow in the Hill Country link. Red dyes are best built gradually, or they can become too intense.
    I think the back of your mandolin will have some natural tendency towards a shaded look, because of the nature of the wood.

    A thin sealer coat before applying stain might be a good idea on this instrument to get the somewhat subdued colors and shading that you linked to. If you seal first, you will need solvent based dyes [i.e. alcohol].

    If you don't seal first, you can use water or alcohol based aniline dyes or Trans-tint or the equivalent. We know that these will work. Woodcraft stores may have some other alternatives, but they may not be proven in instrument work.

    If it was me, I would sand everything really well at least twice, then sand again to 400. Then, I would seal very lightly first. If the sealer reveals any scratches you missed, you will have to sand and seal again. Anyway, once you get your initial sealer down, wait 2-3 days, and use alcohol dyes. If the work starts to get the least bit sticky, quit for the day, wait another day, then continue the staining.
    When the staining is done, wait another 2-3 days, seal at least twice more, wait another day or two [or more], sand very lightly and carefully, and then start building the finish coats with the medium of your choice. I prefer the varnishes [spirit, shellac, oil] for an old timey look, and nitrocellulose lacquer for a more modern look.

    It's a nice looking instrument with interesting wood. I'd use high quality finishing materials, and practice the patience necessary to get good results. Ample drying time between steps is essential, no matter what products you settle on. When in doubt, if you think you need to wait 24 hours before the next step or coat, wait 48 hours instead.

    Practice on scrap!!

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  21. #13

    Default Re: Beginner staining & finishing

    Quote Originally Posted by sunburst View Post
    That was me doing that video (not sure who @starburst is )
    Doh! I must have had candy on my mind. In any case, the video is really helpful!

  22. #14

    Default Re: Beginner staining & finishing

    I'm considering this for dyes: https://smile.amazon.com/dp/B00BAKWTMQ (Keda 5-color powder, at Amazon for $18.50.)

    and this for finish: https://smile.amazon.com/Westlake-Ma.../dp/B07MTK6H9F (Westlake Market, Birchwood Casey Tru-Oil Gun Stock Finish with Two Disposable Absorbent Pads, for $16.50.)

    About the only spray shellac I can find on Amazon is https://smile.amazon.com/Rust-Oleum-.../dp/B0009X8HWG, for $15.

    Will these work?

    What about alcohol? I've read everclear suggested but I have no idea where to get it, and while my son has been talking about making a still for years, nothing's come of it yet. 95% denatured ethanol, or 99% isoporopyl?

    https://www.walmart.com/ip/Ethyl-Alc...anol/156420555

    Also, folks are suggesting to seal BEFORE staining. So, a quick seal both before and after staining?

  23. #15

    Default Re: Beginner staining & finishing

    Quote Originally Posted by rcc56 View Post
    I see red, amber, and just a touch of brown. I also see a bit of yellow in the Hill Country link. Red dyes are best built gradually, or they can become too intense.
    Me too. Probably more brown as I want a bit more of a cherry-tobacco vintage look than that nice bright piece. In reality, I'll probably be happy with however it ends up, as long as I don't kill it.

    I'm thinking of just amber for the lightest/center, red with a touch of brown for the middle, and less red with more brown for the edge.

    Practice on scrap!!
    Right! I have some pine 1x6 that I plan to use for practice. Since it's a kit, there's no left-over wood to speak of.

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    Default Re: Beginner staining & finishing

    I mix blonde dewaxed shellac flakes with denatured alcohol (DNA) and tint it with Keda powdered dye mixed in DNA. Zinsser makes shellac in a spray can.

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  26. #17

    Default Re: Beginner staining & finishing

    Well, I got the materials and I've been staining a 1x6, sanding it off, and trying again.

    So far I've made a lotta ugly boards.

    :-)

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    Default Re: Beginner staining & finishing

    Quote Originally Posted by JeffLearman View Post
    Well, I got the materials and I've been staining a 1x6, sanding it off, and trying again.

    So far I've made a lotta ugly boards.

    :-)
    That’s the path to success. Think how little you’d learn if the first one was perfect
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  28. #19

    Default Re: Beginner staining & finishing

    So, I'm not making much progress. The problem is that the stain doesn't seem to stick; it seems to wipe right off on the second swipe, and I can't "build" a color.

    The lightest (yellow with some brown) coat goes on nicely; I put a pretty even coat on, let it dry, put another and maybe a third, and the board looks pretty evenly stained. But the red (with brown) and brown (with a bit of black) just slide and don't really stick.

    I've been using 95% denatured alcohol with Keda dye powder. Following the instructions, I start with a couple tablespoons of warm water and after adding 1/8 tsp of dye powder and mixing it, I fill the small jar with alcohol (total of 4 oz.) With the brown since it seemed thin, I added more and it's darker but still not sticking, just sliding. I tried using water instead, but that beaded up and was a mess.

    Wiping leaves ridges of the new color at the edge of where I wipe. Following John's video, I use the center color and fade in, but instead of fading it seems to just wipe off the new dye. It's like the spray shellac is too slippery.

    Also, I notice that in John's video, when he wipes the stain on, it REALLY STAINS. My stains look anemic in comparison.

    Any suggestions?

    The good news is my wife likes the color in the center, and she has a good eye for color.

    Oh also, I did find a pic that's the effect what I'm going for, with a bit more red in the fading area, though I'll be happy anything that doesn't look like a Jackson Pollock. Here's the pic, from the Newbies group. Not sure how to get attachments to inline

    Attachment 196523
    Last edited by JeffLearman; Jan-14-2022 at 4:36pm.

  29. #20
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    Default Re: Beginner staining & finishing

    Water and alcohol?? Doesn't sound right. Use alcohol stain without water. Water stains will not bond with shellac.

    It is also possible that you are using too much shellac for your sealer. I would think in terms of "sizing" or a "wash coat" rather than "sealing." The purpose of this initial sizing is to keep the stain from soaking too deeply and unevenly into the raw wood, which can result in blotchiness.

    If I was going to size or seal first before adding color, I would use only very thin liquid shellac, wiped on, and not too much.
    I would let that dry at least 24 hours before staining. You may need more than one staining session. After the work is stained to your satisfaction, you will need to wait at least 48 hours before adding any more sealer, shellac, or lacquer. After that, let dry again before applying your build coats.

    In a nutshell, the procedure is 1] sizing, which not everyone does but can prevent blotchiness, 2] staining, 3] sealer, 4] building coats, 5] final coats, 6] final rub-out and polish. Allow plenty of dry time between operations.

    Try again on a fresh board.

  30. #21
    Registered User sunburst's Avatar
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    Default Re: Beginner staining & finishing

    Frankly, I don't know how people manage to wipe dyes successfully on a sealed wood surface. I know there are those who do, but I can't do it to my satisfaction. The mandolin in the video has no sealer. I was rubbing dyes on the bare wood.

  31. #22
    Adrian Minarovic
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    Default Re: Beginner staining & finishing

    Sealing wood before staining is tricky.
    Stains (or better said dyes in this case) are formulated to add color directly onto wood fibers. If your wood is encased in sealer (shellac) they will not hold. Alcohol based stains will somehow eat into the surface of shellac but the rubbing will create an ugly slurry of collected shellac mixed with the stains pretty much impossible to rub evenly. (I use this to dye headstocks or fingerrests by alternating between shellac and black stain which will mix into darker black paint-like surface)
    ALso stain applied over thick sealer will show slightly different color from stain that is soaked in wood fibers.
    Your sealer coat MUST be very thin and ideally you need to sand surface again with very fine sandpaper so the surface fibers are all exposed and sealer only rests in the pores hopefully blocking the stain from soaking in too fast or too deep which is main cause of blotchy spruce (especially on carved tops) or so-called burned flames on maple (some folks in mandolin world actually do that intentionally by starting by dark stain over maple and sanding it off the surface, but in violin world it is big NO)
    You will need to experiment with sealer if you want to use it but it needs to be pretty much watery applied quickly and evenly without buildup, one or two applications should be enough. Light sanding after full drying is a must. Some folks use shellac, some use clear gelatin (same as hide glue) or casein solution (look for Davide Sora violin making videos on YT, I'm sure he shows also his dilution for casein somewhere)
    Adrian

  32. #23
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    Default Re: Beginner staining & finishing

    You've gotten some good advice. And both John and Adrian have been further down this road than I have. My experience with a wash coat followed by stain is limited to mahogany that was to be stained a uniform color, and I added more color when I applied lacquer later.

    Try more than one technique and see what gives you the best results.
    Test boards are a wonderful thing.

  33. #24

    Default Re: Beginner staining & finishing

    OK guys, thanks! That helps a lot, and makes sense. I'm definitely using too much shellac, and maybe none is best. A little blotchiness won't bother me. The top seems quite consistent in grain and density. The back is another matter, but it's maple and what the heck it'll be different anyway.

    Oops, meant to hit Post yesterday but here it sits in my browser. I'm finally making progress! It's working best without any sealer, so I guess I'll just want to get it right the first time. Strangely enough I don't really have to sand off that much more board to start over. Here's my latest. The red is too pink and the fades aren't smooth enough, so some dye mix adjustment and more practice today.

    Click image for larger version. 

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  34. #25

    Default Re: Beginner staining & finishing

    Just a suggestion, but on your practice boards you might want to sand the ends rounded to more of an arc like an actual soundboard or back. The purpose of the sealing is to deal with end grain issues that show up when you cut through the end grain. That does not happen on a flat board. Unless you are making a flat top the actual soundboard will take stain differently than a flat board.

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