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Thread: Grover tuners

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    Default Grover tuners

    I need some information please. I am setting up an A style mandolin made by an independent builder, it has his design headstock and Grover tuners. The tuners are worm over so they turn backwards. They appear to be F style tuners so I canít see how he could have swapped them. Doeís Grover make a worm over and a worm under, and if so are they interchangeable. The builder says they are all he could make fit but I canít see why after comparing them to tuners on an F5 nothing wrong with tuners just owner doesnít like them turning opposite of his other mandolins and I agree. Thanks for any help and/or recommendations to achieve the desired resultís

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    Moderator MikeEdgerton's Avatar
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    Default Re: Grover tuners

    How about a picture? Tuners should turn the correct direction.
    "Bargain instruments are no bargains if you can't play them". These are the words of J. Garber.

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    Registered User Mandobart's Avatar
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    Default Re: Grover tuners

    The tuners are "worm over so they turn backwards" makes no sense. I have worm over Rubner's on my F5. I have worm under Gotoh's on my Morris F4. I have worm under Grover's on my F4 octave mandolin. I have worm under Schaller's on my Eastman mandocello. I have worm over Waverly's on my Eastman guitar, and worm over Schaller's on my Martin. I put worm over Stew-Mac Golden Age A-style tuners on a couple vintage mandolins.

    I have sealed Grover rotomatics on three other instruments. The worm gear is on top on all of these.

    In every single case, my tuners all turn the same correct way (CCW to raise the pitch). Worm under or over has nothing to do with going backwards, unless they're installed wrong.

    If they weren't for an F headstock I'd say it sounds like someone flipped your tuners and put them on the wrong sides. They must have ordered them backwards.
    Last edited by Mandobart; Dec-04-2021 at 10:09pm.

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    Moderator MikeEdgerton's Avatar
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    Default Re: Grover tuners

    The late Cafe member Paul Hostetter has a great explanation of tuners on his site. It's right here.
    "Bargain instruments are no bargains if you can't play them". These are the words of J. Garber.

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    Default Re: Grover tuners

    I have played mandolin for 40+ years, I always set up my own and have set up quite a few other peoples mandolins BUT I have never done much with tuners. So you are saying worm over or worm under should turn the same way the gears would have to be cut backwards wouldn’t they ?? This is a individual small builder made mandolin, and it is an A style but with a builder designed peg head. They are FStyle tuners because the peg head flares similar to an F style peg head. I don’t see a way that they could be installed reversed. Wouldn’t the shorter keys be where they wouldn’t extend out past peghead. I’m buffaloed because of my lack of knowledge

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    Monte Barnett MB-Octo's Avatar
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    Default Re: Grover tuners

    Echoing: "How about a picture?"
    Monte

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    Moderator MikeEdgerton's Avatar
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    Default Re: Grover tuners

    Quote Originally Posted by Mandoplumb View Post
    I have played mandolin for 40+ years, I always set up my own and have set up quite a few other peoples mandolins BUT I have never done much with tuners. So you are saying worm over or worm under should turn the same way the gears would have to be cut backwards wouldn’t they ?? This is a individual small builder made mandolin, and it is an A style but with a builder designed peg head. They are FStyle tuners because the peg head flares similar to an F style peg head. I don’t see a way that they could be installed reversed. Wouldn’t the shorter keys be where they wouldn’t extend out past peghead. I’m buffaloed because of my lack of knowledge
    Yes, the tuners should turn the correct way BUT for some reason some builders in eastern Europe use the tuners that turn the wrong way. Post a picture of the tuners so we can see the brand. It may be easier for you just to buy the right tuners. I have worm over Waverly tuners on my mandola that I went to great lengths to find and they turn the right way.

    Did you look at the link I posted above to Paul Hostetter's page? It explains it pretty well.
    "Bargain instruments are no bargains if you can't play them". These are the words of J. Garber.

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    Moderator MikeEdgerton's Avatar
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    Default Re: Grover tuners

    My eyes just opened. Your builder used Grover worm over tuners. They didn't go to the trouble of making a real worm over tuner. The new ones will always turn backwards. They used the same worm gear as they did for their worm under tuners. You'll need to replace them with some real worm over tuners. There are a few available.
    "Bargain instruments are no bargains if you can't play them". These are the words of J. Garber.

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    Moderator MikeEdgerton's Avatar
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    Default Re: Grover tuners

    Take a look at this thread from a few years ago. We pretty much determined all of the worm over f style tuners available. I even mention the Grovers being backwards.

    https://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/t...F-style-tuners

    The new Rubner's are nice if they are available. Make sure you specify worm over.

    https://www.rubnertuners.com/worm-un...n-machines-new
    "Bargain instruments are no bargains if you can't play them". These are the words of J. Garber.

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    Registered User meow-n-dolin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Grover tuners

    Quote Originally Posted by Mandoplumb View Post
    Doe’s Grover make a worm over and a worm under, and if so are they interchangeable.
    I installed gold-plated Grover 23O (F-style) on my Eastman. I had to "swap" the tuners from "over" to "under." It took about twenty minutes. I assume the vital parts of "A" style tuners would be the same? Not sure it this helps.....

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    Moderator MikeEdgerton's Avatar
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    Default Re: Grover tuners

    Quote Originally Posted by meow-n-dolin View Post
    I installed gold-plated Grover 23O (F-style) on my Eastman. I had to "swap" the tuners from "over" to "under." It took about twenty minutes. I assume the vital parts of "A" style tuners would be the same? Not sure it this helps.....
    His A style mandolin has a different style head and uses F style tuners. He can't swap them to make them work. A style posts are all the same length, F style tuners are not. The F style worm under tuners may interfere with his headstock shape.
    "Bargain instruments are no bargains if you can't play them". These are the words of J. Garber.

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    Registered User meow-n-dolin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Grover tuners

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeEdgerton View Post
    His The F style worm under tuners may interfere with his headstock shape.
    I sj

    True. I did not account for that. Just for clarification: I "swapped" the position of the individual shafts of each tuner (placed the long shafts where the short ones had been, etc.)

    Thanks

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    Moderator MikeEdgerton's Avatar
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    Default Re: Grover tuners

    In essence you made a set of worm under tuners. Those you can buy. Grover wimped out on their worm over tuners by simply using the same parts. The gears need to be cut right for the tuners to turn correctly.
    "Bargain instruments are no bargains if you can't play them". These are the words of J. Garber.

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    Default Re: Grover tuners

    Let's illustrate the gears with Grover's own product. Note the direction that the gears are cut on the Grover A style worm over tuners. they are cut ////. Now note the direction that both the worm over and worm under gears are cut on the Grover F style tuners. They are both \\\\. They shouldn't be the same. That's why they turn backwards. Grover cut a corner and people are buying them in good faith even though they are cut wrong.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

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    "Bargain instruments are no bargains if you can't play them". These are the words of J. Garber.

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  16. #15
    Registered User meow-n-dolin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Grover tuners

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeEdgerton View Post
    In essence you made a set of worm under tuners. Those you can buy. Grover wimped out on their worm over tuners by simply using the same parts. The gears need to be cut right for the tuners to turn correctly.
    Yep. I got these from an outfit based in France -- I couldn't find them in the US at the time. While not an "upgrade" from the stock tuners (which were Schallers) they satisfied my urge for GOLD.

    The Schallers now reside on an oval-hole F model.
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    Registered User Mandobart's Avatar
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    Default Re: Grover tuners

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeEdgerton View Post
    My eyes just opened. Your builder used Grover worm over tuners. They didn't go to the trouble of making a real worm over tuner. The new ones will always turn backwards. They used the same worm gear as they did for their worm under tuners. You'll need to replace them with some real worm over tuners. There are a few available.
    I REALLY doubt the mandolin builder also built the tuning machines. That's like an engine builder making his own bearings. Nobody does that.

    Am I really the only one here on the cafe with multiple examples of worm under and worm over machines, on F and A headstocks (including Grover's) that all somehow magically turn correctly?

    I think the only explanation is the mandolin builder ordered backwards tuning machines, intentionally or not. Because of the headstock geometry (and possibly they drilled for tuner rollers before checking the fit) they're now saying "these are the only ones that will fit."

  18. #17
    Registered User Mandobart's Avatar
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    Default Re: Grover tuners

    Quote Originally Posted by Mandoplumb View Post
    Does Grover make a worm over and a worm under, and if so are they interchangeable?
    I don't know, but I've contacted Grover directly through their website for other questions and they're very helpful.

    Are they interchangeable? Well, yes in that the hole spacing for all 4-on-a-plate mandolin tuning machine rollers have been standardized for decades. But, when you go from worm over to worm under, everything shifts on the headstock and the plates move down by about the distance equal to the roller gear diameter.

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    Default Re: Grover tuners

    Grover's worm over tuners turn the wrong way. It's because they didn't bother to manufacture a different worm gear. The pictures above illustrate the issue. Nobody ordered the wrong tuners. That's the way Grover builds them. Follow the link to the Worm over discussion above and you'll see what worm over tuners are available that are correct. That's a business decision they made.
    "Bargain instruments are no bargains if you can't play them". These are the words of J. Garber.

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    Default Re: Grover tuners

    I will have the mandolin back in my procession hopefully tomorrow and will try to get a picture.
    Yes Mike I looked at what you suggested snd learned a lot about how little I really know about tuners. Appreciate the info. Posted this before I read your following post so editing . I didnít know about the backward turning Grovers, so much I donít know about tuners, but I think this is what we are looking at here. Thanks again for the linksÖ you have given me a starting point in correcting this problem. This website is such a wealth of information

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    Default Re: Grover tuners

    Mike thanks for the education and help the mandolin owner and I at least know what we are looking for now we suspect changing will require additional drilling and I won’t tackle that so he has kept mandolin at his home, so I can’t send pictures as several posts requested. But if problem is solved that is what we needed thsnks all for all the help. I love this forum. Thanks Scott

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