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Thread: A Gibson A3 in the white. In the white — get it?

  1. #26
    Registered User Charles E.'s Avatar
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    Default Re: A Gibson A3 in the white. In the white — get it?

    JB, it is a shame about the finish being stripped but the mandolin looks good otherwise. The spruce top grain looks pretty nice and there are examples of A-3's having an original blond or natural finish. You might want to consider that option. I am glad that you opted out of the black finish because it would just be "wrong" and I am a fan of black topped Gibson mandolins.

    Looking forward to seeing you in Key West in Dec!
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    A bunch of stuff with four strings

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    Professional Dreamer journeybear's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Gibson A3 in the white. In the white — get it?

    I think you misread what I said. The black finish is currently the frontrunner, despite my reservations. We just have to figure out how to save the binding. Fortunately, my luthier is generally dedicated to restoration and preservation of instruments' integrity. I'm sure he'll come up with something. I'm fine with the pumpkin finish, if it isn't too expensive,
    Last edited by journeybear; Oct-29-2021 at 6:38pm. Reason: thought of something else
    But that's just my opinion. I could be wrong. - Dennis Miller

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  4. #28

    Default Re: A Gibson A3 in the white. In the white — get it?

    Even though the top looks clean, there’s a good chance that there are dents in places. Dents take stains differently - wood is more dense, so a finish with stain can be blotchy. On the other hand, solid finishes, insensitive to this, differ in how they show imperfections, gloss black being the most visible. That’s why black is the show finish of choice for cars; shows high quality work best. White reveals almost no sins. (No ecclesiastical comment intended). Your guy will certainly factor these things, as he’s not likely to suggest heavy sanding to assure a perfect surface.

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    Default Re: A Gibson A3 in the white. In the white — get it?

    Thanks for the info. Interesting. I'd think black would be less sensitive than lighter or clearer finishes. My luthier has been doing this kind of work for the better part of a half-century, so I'll bet he knows about this and plenty more as well. Though to be fair, I'll guess he doesn't do a whole lot of finish work, mostly concerned with repairing structural damage. This isn't a restoration project - I reckon it's too far gone for that - so a bit of sanding is probably all right. I'm going to abide by his judgment, of course. Whatever he thinks is best, and however he decides to deal with applying finish near the binding will be fine with me.

    Am I correct in assuming that originally the top was finished all over, and then a groove was cut into it to allow for insertion of the decorative binding around the soundhole? That seems most logical to me. Reapplying finish to this area would be trickier from its current state.
    But that's just my opinion. I could be wrong. - Dennis Miller

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  6. #30
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    Default Re: A Gibson A3 in the white. In the white — get it?

    Gibson's habit through most of their history was to finish their instruments with the bindings and rosette already installed, then scrape any unwanted color off the bindings and rosette, and finish off with a clear coat. In some cases, they may have had a technique for masking a rosette.

    Lots of hand builders and repair people follow this same practice. Others may be masking their bindings. Glueing and levelling bindings and rosettes on an instrument that has been finished, whether new or old, is generally avoided whenever possible for several reasons.

    I don't know how Gibson handles it now. I believe their guitar finishing is now done in automated spray booths. As far as mandos are concerned, you'll have to ask Dave Harvey. The techniques they are using on the model 9's may be quite different than those they are using on the model 5's.

    My unsolicited opinion for a new top finish for a 1918-1922 A-3 would be either a] white nitrocellulose lacquer followed by a clear coat [easier], or b] some sort of varnish dyed opaque white [probably more authentic, but probably harder to figure out how to do]. What Gibson was using on the originals, we will never know. I am confident that they were not spraying lacquer in 1920.

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    Default Re: A Gibson A3 in the white. In the white — get it?

    Thanks. I may forward your suggestion to my luthier once it arrives (midweek) and he's had a chance to look it over and decide what's best. This is George Youngblood, by the way, who is first-rate, top-notch, and A-OK.

    Aesthetically, I find the white unappealing. Historically, it's accurate, and for this instrument, original. Decisions, decisions ...
    But that's just my opinion. I could be wrong. - Dennis Miller

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    Default Re: A Gibson A3 in the white. In the white — get it?

    Well, you certainly don't have to finish it white. It's originality was compromised long ago, so authenticity is not essential.
    Black can be nice, and one or two custom ordered black A-3's have surfaced over the years.
    Or if the top isn't too contaminated, you might be able to finish it natural or pumpkin if you want, which was the standard color for A-3's made before 1918.

    I might shake my head if you were to finish it in Shoreline Gold or Pelham Blue. But you are the owner, so if you did, that really wouldn't be any of my business.

    Q: If mandolins had been in common use in 1960's psychedelic rock bands, would a pink paisley mandolin have been available??

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    Default Re: A Gibson A3 in the white. In the white — get it?

    Since the original ivory finish was lost how about going all the way?
    This refinished A3 appeared a few years ago at a Skinner auction.

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  11. #34
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    Default Re: A Gibson A3 in the white. In the white — get it?

    YIKES!!! You guys are too much!

    You do have a point - I'm looking at a blank canvas here, and could have anything I want on there. Nothing like what you're suggesting there, mind you. But I could use the photo I have as my computer's background, of Brigitte Bardot in a teddy, strumming a guitar ... and have that turned into a mandolin. Or not. I want it to be classic and classy.

    But not gold, blue, or whatever happened to the one at Skinner. And not keen on white. I'd prefer pumpkin, which would show the rosette and double binding, if it's not much more expensive than black. I don't quite understand why it would cost a few hundred, but then I don't know much at all about this part of mandolin building or restoring. And since I'm not doing it myself, I pretty much have to go with what he says.
    But that's just my opinion. I could be wrong. - Dennis Miller

    Furthering Mandolin Consciousness

    Finders Keepers, my duo with the astoundingly talented and versatile Patti Rothberg. Our EP is finally done, and available! PM me, while they last!

  12. #35
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    Default Re: A Gibson A3 in the white. In the white — get it?

    Well, you can do a good looking pumpkin finish if your repairman can get the top totally clean of old finish and other contaminants without thinning it too much. I prefer the look of shellac based spirit varnish for such a finish. If your repairman has doubts about getting the top clean enough, you would probably be better off with a black finish, which can be done in either varnish or lacquer.

    Finish work is expensive because it takes a lot of time and skill to prepare the top, apply the finish, and rub it out; and the raw materials are not as cheap as a gallon of mid-grade paint from your local hardware store.

    If you do a pumpkin finish, expect the job to take at least two or three months once it hits the workbench. Varnish needs more time to cure than lacquer.

  13. #36
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    Default Re: A Gibson A3 in the white. In the white — get it?

    Duly noted. I'm planning to pick it up in May, so that's plenty of time. It's scheduled for delivery Tues/Wed. We'll have a plan by week's end.
    But that's just my opinion. I could be wrong. - Dennis Miller

    Furthering Mandolin Consciousness

    Finders Keepers, my duo with the astoundingly talented and versatile Patti Rothberg. Our EP is finally done, and available! PM me, while they last!

  14. #37

    Default Re: A Gibson A3 in the white. In the white — get it?

    The pickguard alone is masterful, and six, count them, six puttis!
    Interesting how we get tuned in on a genre: geometrics all over ok on an oud, but not a mandolin; dragons inlaid just fine in Asia, vulgar in bluegrass country; bindings and purfling ok, if not wider than just so much; other elaborate inlay ok, oil painting not so much.
    Scrolls and points, wonderful, other shapes, weird.
    One might think that electric guitars punctured stultified string instrument design for good, but maybe not.

  15. #38
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    Default Re: A Gibson A3 in the white. In the white — get it?

    Yes, electric guitars have come in all kinds of shapes over the years, going at least as far back as Bo Diddley's rectangular one. The Flying V got to be used so much it became nearly quaint compared to wilder designs. These rarely have any appeal for me. I don't think of my tastes as being conservative, but I prefer simple, clean lines and colors to gaudy and garish ones. I love the look of Gibson Les Pauls, and SGs, and Fender Strats and Teles. Same with mandolins. It's function over form for me. Somehow more adventurous designs and colorations seem too distracting. I guess I go for Doric columns more than Ionian or Corinthian.

    That doesn't mean others aren't so inclined. This adventurous creation posted by Dusepo may be just the thing for some people.
    But that's just my opinion. I could be wrong. - Dennis Miller

    Furthering Mandolin Consciousness

    Finders Keepers, my duo with the astoundingly talented and versatile Patti Rothberg. Our EP is finally done, and available! PM me, while they last!

  16. #39
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    Default Re: A Gibson A3 in the white. In the white — get it?

    A fun discussion!

    There has been much speculation about the formulation for the ivory finish, Rcc has spoken with authority about this several times in the past, most recently just a few months ago in the thread about the white painted H1 mandola.

    Here is the link. https://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/t...ighlight=Ivory

    Included in the link are photos from the 1921 catalog with the words that Gibson used to describe the “Old Ivory” finish and others. From this it is fairly certain that the ivory finish was some sort of varnish, not paint. According to historian Joe Spann lacquer was not used until early 1925 which is beyond the period of the ivory finish.

    Personally I find the original ivory finish appealing, many A3’s were sold with this finish so it must have appealed to the original buyers. Today’s players seem to love it or hate it, there doesn’t seem to be an in between.

    Below is a photo of the F2 discussed in the earlier thread, a rare bird indeed. Sorry, I don’t recall the source. It is pictured in Paul Fox’ Gibson history book.

    Also, I see the word “Pumpkin” used by modern collectors. Historically Gibson referred to the earlier A3’s and others like the A1 as having a “Golden Orange” finish. I sent Joe Spann a spreadsheet of my Gibson collection and he replied with this chart of corrections. Can we kill the pumpkin terminology?

    Joe Writes: I have found a source (from the factory records) which now allows us to use the proper terms in describing the various stain colors.
    Here is a list of your descriptive terms with their actual original Gibson counterparts:

    Red Sunburst = Mahogany Sunburst
    Pumpkin = Golden Orange
    Piquant Ivory = Old Ivory
    Sheraton Brown = Sheraton Brown
    Black = Black

    We’ll have to wait to see how JB’s A3 turns out.

    Mark

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    Mark
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  17. #40

    Default Re: A Gibson A3 in the white. In the white — get it?

    Just had an idea (couple minutes after another auction ended — yet another one for the collection!)
    Anyway, again drawing from car stuff, there’s a little tool used for pinstriping that makes easy uniform thin paint lines, typically in enamels. If you could put a stripe inboard/outboard of the black inlay/bindings, following the outline with a guide, you could add a light or white stripe and still have the main body black, without much effort, and totally removable if necessary. I can look up the gizmo if necessary - it’s a standard tool, and some versions if I remember, put down multiple lines.
    Tonight’s catch is (maybe) a 1900’s Favilla mandolin, or something dressed up as one. Either way, looks interesting. More in another thread when it appears.

  18. #41
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    Default Re: A Gibson A3 in the white. In the white — get it?

    Well, she got delivered today, a day early. First impressions include that a pumpkin finish is out of the question: "about eight or nine dings in the top, some before the white paint was added and some deeper marks from after it was sanded off. These flaws in the top deny the possibility of a clean transparent 'pumpkin' finish. Several of them are much too deep to sand out." Over in the good news section: "The top is in very nice shape otherwise. The arch is perfect and its one interior brace is still solidly attached." He confirms the tuners are original, and in good condition. Also, the tailpiece cover IS included. Whew!

    There's a fair amount of fretboard damage, which may not be necessary to repair. The first seven frets need to be replaced. If it can be kept to that, the overall expense may still be able to be kept in the general bargain area. It won't be a true bargain, but all in all will be under $2000. By how much remains to be seen.

    Oh, and: "It started life as a pumpkin top just as the white tops were starting to be issued but didn’t sell until 1919 because … the Spanish flu, of course. The white paint was after the fact." So that solves that mystery. It was white paint the previous owner removed, not an original white finish. That makes more sense, and absolves him of what seemed a sin against luthiery.

    Finally, its FON of 11193 "indicates a build date of 1918 while the serial number (49113) suggests a distribution date of early 1919. During that other pandemic." He's having quite a chuckle about the connection between the two pandemics. More material for the life story of this mandolin.
    But that's just my opinion. I could be wrong. - Dennis Miller

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    Finders Keepers, my duo with the astoundingly talented and versatile Patti Rothberg. Our EP is finally done, and available! PM me, while they last!

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    Default Re: A Gibson A3 in the white. In the white — get it?

    JB,

    I’m glad your A3 arrived safely and thanks for the update about its condition.

    I’m sorry that I cannot agree with your speculation that it started life as a ‘golden orange’ topped instrument. The rosette and bindings are clearly not correct for this finish. Your A3 has the binding and rosette used with the ‘Old Ivory’ finish.

    Please examine these photos and I think you’ll agree.

    First is a 1916 A3 FON 3457, S/N 34945

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    And your A3
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    I see that I have been unsuccessful at at converting our thinking away from ‘painted white’ and ‘pumpkin’ BG…

    Keep us posted on your progress.

    Mark
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  22. #43
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    Default Re: A Gibson A3 in the white. In the white — get it?

    Hey! Don't kill the messenger! I'm just relaying information. And I quote:

    "It started life as a pumpkin top just as the white tops were starting to be issued but didn’t sell until 1919 because … the Spanish flu, of course. The white paint was after the fact. This is what my magnifiers and other evidence tells me. I’ll keep you posted."

    I will grant that the black-white double binding makes more sense with a white top. But I'm inclined to go along with what my luthier says, with his hands-on appraisal and 50+ years of experience. I haven't asked him yet what he means by "other evidence." This could have been a transitional item. And there were some pumpkin ones. But let's not overlook the obvious - it's Gibson, so things don't always make sense.
    But that's just my opinion. I could be wrong. - Dennis Miller

    Furthering Mandolin Consciousness

    Finders Keepers, my duo with the astoundingly talented and versatile Patti Rothberg. Our EP is finally done, and available! PM me, while they last!

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    Default Re: A Gibson A3 in the white. In the white — get it?

    JB, it's yours. Do whatever you think will look the best and make you happy. Hope it turns out to be a good sounding instrument and you get plenty of pleasure from it.

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  25. #45

    Default Re: A Gibson A3 in the white. In the white — get it?

    This could have been a transitional item.”

    So, one dark night in 1953, the head of MG Motors, Abington, a ‘panel beater’ and the chief engineer, responding to flagging sales of the dated-looking MGTD, pulled one off the line and, by eye, according to legend, cut the headlights into the fenders, leaned back the radiator to a rakish angle, and birthed the MGTF, the next model that also didn’t sell too well…. I’m willing to bet that prototype got painted and sold….
    So, I can also see a finished mandolin pulled off the shelf, stripped of bindings, and re-created as the prototype albino —— and not trashed afterward.
    The story I’d invent to explain the forensic evidence might not satisfy our archivists, but might make good telling: and of course, make your instrument incredibly valuable….

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  27. #46
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    Default Re: A Gibson A3 in the white. In the white — get it?

    Listen, pal. There's no need to get snarky. I have no interest in disproving others' opinions or insights; I don't care who's right; I just want to know what's right, As I said, I am repeating my luthier's initial observations. I don't know you, nor am I aware of your experience. But I do know my luthier, and have for 45 years, and know him to be an expert and also a good friend. Although he is self-taught, he has applied himself to learning, and what he doesn't know, he researches thoroughly until he understands. So if he tells me something about an instrument that he has gleaned from applying his experience and observational skills to an instrument he has at hand, I give that much more weight than the opinions of an armchair detective looking at photos from a distance. Indeed, I will trust him more than you 100 times out of 100. If he says there was golden orange finish under the white paint, I believe him, and see no reason to believe otherwise. As I said, "It was white paint the previous owner removed, not an original white finish." So your sarcastic supposition - "I can also see a finished mandolin pulled off the shelf, stripped of bindings, and re-created as the prototype albino" - is unfounded, inaccurate, and unkind. My guess - and all any of us can say will be a guess - as I expressed it, is the same as George's, that it was built with a pumpkin finish, the mariachi player painted it white, and whoever bought it from him removed everything, down to the white, and never finished the refinish, for whatever reason. If that was the reason. In the absence of a provenance from my seller, we have nothing but speculation.

    When I said "transitional item," I was referring to the double binding being used with a pumpkin top. That may have been unusual, as far as I know, and could have been done for a while and then abandoned. I've surely done less research over the years than you, and you've surely seen many more mandolins and/or photos than I have, but that doesn't mean there couldn't have been some mandolins produced that have these two qualities. Also, it could have been a custom order. The length of time between the dates of the FON and SN could indicate that.

    BTW, the notion that this instrument could be "incredibly valuable" is absurd. It's been through far too much to be worth much more than what I paid for it, and may well not have been worth even that. I doubt it will see an increase in resale value commensurate with my investment. In keeping with all my mandolins, it was purchased to be played, not flipped. I'm hoping its sound is in keeping with the look of the unfinished wood, which is excellent, to my weary eyes.
    But that's just my opinion. I could be wrong. - Dennis Miller

    Furthering Mandolin Consciousness

    Finders Keepers, my duo with the astoundingly talented and versatile Patti Rothberg. Our EP is finally done, and available! PM me, while they last!

  28. #47

    Default Re: A Gibson A3 in the white. In the white — get it?

    Gosh, I was just trying to lighten up the criticism - not be snarky! Not one bit. I thought you were being criticized for the sin of potentially deviating from collector orthodoxy, which to me is just fine. Apologies. The MG story is true, and to me, charming. I also expect you’ve made a good buy, and are laudably restoring it for much future enjoyment. And no, we’ve not met, and no, I’m neither a musician nor any kind of an authority on music or instruments. Sorry, sorry!

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    Default Re: A Gibson A3 in the white. In the white — get it?

    Apology accepted, sir, and likewise please accept my apology for having overreacted. I didn't think I was being criticized all that much in this thread, though there has been a goodly amount of lively discussion about this instrument's heritage, much of which is still speculative. As for me "deviating from collector orthodoxy," hell to the yeah! I've been coloring outside the lines my whole life, which has enabled me to wander far afield from strict rules regarding propriety.

    But I must admit I'm surprised by your assertions of not being a musician nor an expert of things musical. If I recall correctly, you've posted a-plenty on many aspects of musical matters, and I'd never have guessed you were not personally involved in the field. Well, I stand corrected on this as well. Well, go figure. Though to be sure, I am here to learn, share, and discuss. Living and learning, here.

    Oh, and that MG story is hi-larious! FWIW, my grandfather was a Cadillac salesman, but drove an MG. Oddly enough, there is someone here who drives a very similar one, down to the forest green color, running board, and wire spoke wheels. Keeps hi memory alive.
    But that's just my opinion. I could be wrong. - Dennis Miller

    Furthering Mandolin Consciousness

    Finders Keepers, my duo with the astoundingly talented and versatile Patti Rothberg. Our EP is finally done, and available! PM me, while they last!

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    Default Re: A Gibson A3 in the white. In the white — get it?

    Okay, back on track!

    JB, can you share the evidence that your luthier found that indicate that your A3 was originally golden orange?

    No one seems to know how the Old Ivory finish was applied. As such, I will speculate (from my armchair!) that it is likely that the Ivory finish consisted of several layers. The first coat may indeed be an orange shellac or similar which was topped with other opaque materials to give the Ivory result. Please let us know what your luthier was seeing. Again, the binding and rosette would suggest that Gibson was heading for the Ivory finish as a final color. Is there evidence that the orange layer would have continued all the way to the finished surface? We may never know. Does anyone want to do a forensic exercise with their Ivory A3 to examine the strata below? BG

    Keep up the fun exercise!

    Ultimately, I agree with rcc, it is your instrument so you can refinish it any way you like! Please share pictures of the final result.

    Mark
    Mark Lynch

  32. #50
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    Default Re: A Gibson A3 in the white. In the white — get it?

    Not the best picture but here's the A3 that I picked up years ago as a project. It had a headstock repair and the top was stripped. I decided to have some fun with it and make it a black top plus I altered the headstock to a snakehead shape. I added the white celluloid binding to the soundhole.
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